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Around SBN: This Week In GIFs

Pensky goes to Tennessee


Here's the link: http://www.utladyvols.com/sports/w-soccer/spec-rel/012612aag.html

I'm sure some folks will be saying . . . well, it's just women's soccer, but when you can't keep homegrown, local talent, you've got problems.

Star-divide

It's really sad to see a local coach, who went from a Maryland high school to UMD assistant to most successful women's soccer coach in the history of the program have to jump ship to make a market salary. You gotta respect Kevin Anderson, the man who turned Maryland from a professional destination program to a stepping stone.

How will the Terps keep Turg when a school with resources comes calling? Of course, you don't have to worry about Randy . . . he's not going anywhere.

Anything deemed inappropriate will be deleted by an admin or moderator with the power to do so. The views of the above FanPost do not represent the beliefs of Testudo Times or Testudo Times' authors, nor are they the work of them.

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Only place

Turgeon is going will be to Lawrence.

I like Turtles!

by RedTurtle on Jan 26, 2012 4:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I love Maryland Athletics

and I love the ladies
but the only programs I care about are men’s bball, women’s bball, football, men’s soccer, men’s lax, and baseball… and maybe field hockey because they crush
all other programs could get cut and I wouldn’t care at all

by bloodwatermission on Jan 26, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually care that women's lax continues to win....

…not that I’d go out of my way to see a game at this point but 7 STRAIGHT NCs is unbelievable in any sport.

by HughGR on Jan 26, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

true

forgot them in my ‘maybe’ category

by bloodwatermission on Jan 26, 2012 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Baseball at UMd?????

They haven’t been relevant in DECADES.

You’d cut softball, which has made the NCAAT the last 3 years, including hosting a round last year, and keep a sport that hasn’t made the NCAAT since before you were born????

"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Proud member of Trainyard Sleepers, BECW: S2
We're gonna win, you know. Stats lie.

by duck on Jan 27, 2012 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd question the wisdom (and logic) of that decision

"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Proud member of Trainyard Sleepers, BECW: S2
We're gonna win, you know. Stats lie.

by duck on Jan 27, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

yes

two more years & bball team will be competitive, 5 years top half of ACC and very good. If not, so what, I’d still keep bball any day of the week.

"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."

by bball purist on Jan 27, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Kevin Anderson

After a few more years with Anderson at the helm, we wont even be a stepping stone anymore….He is incompetent, semi literate and has significant damage to our athletic programs….say what you will about he current fiscal crisis and Yows hand it but KA with his reckless hiring and firing spree and the ridiculous UMD money he has wasted have led directly to the cutting of 8 sports…at least Yow was trying to make things better…KA should have known better but:

1) spent $1M plus hiring additional AD staff
2) Spent $2M firing Fridge
3) Over paid for incompetent assistant coaches which we are now paying dearly for
4) $400K on GW….( I love Gary but did KA ever think about just covering his expenses and a small $$ for Garys speaking engagements??) I am sure GW would have been fine with that…especially since he has a new TV gig

by TerpfanMA on Jan 26, 2012 5:17 PM EST reply actions  

Question

I read this from a few people on the Internet, but I’m not sure of it’s validity – did we lose money on football this year? Or did we still turn a profit?

by terpfan92 on Jan 26, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure we broke even in football. Like a profit of 200K

by terpfan812 on Jan 26, 2012 6:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Football Profitability

Maryland football barely profitable; makes less than Duke football


http://businessofcollegesports.com/2…rgest-profits/

I found this article/link on another site. For the ‘09-’10 school year MD football was less profitable than Duke football and even less profitable than several basketball programs. Only Wake football is less profitable than the Terps, operating in the red for the year.

All of this just makes the Edsall hire even more curious.

There is a link in this article to another article, self sustaining athletic departments. It states that only 22 athletic departments, roughly 10%, are self sustaning, that is, turned a profit without relying on student fees or other university monies. I would have thought the winner would be Texas but its not. Oregon’s athletic department profited $41M, 50% more than the #2 Alabama who raked in $26M in profit. Crazy, crazy stuff!

by TerpfanMA on Jan 26, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Gary will more than pay for himself

through his fundraising. Had KA not hired him, and those dollars would likely be gone.

by curterp on Jan 26, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

nature of the Business

Maryland isn’t in the position to be paying top dollar for a women’s soccer coach.

someone else can do a good job for half the money

clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose!
smoke'em if ya got'em!

by Daniel Hamilton on Jan 26, 2012 5:50 PM EST reply actions  

Well

It would have been possible except we had to buy out several non performing asst coaches who were hired by Edsall / Anderson and given outrageous contracts……Kevin Anderson should start treating UMDs money as if it were his own

by TerpfanMA on Jan 26, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't afford $100k

for a soccer coach who wins, but we can pay one loser f-ball assistant after another $500k? Maybe you should look up the definition of “afford.” More bad choices for the athletic dept. and don’t worry – none of our football staff are going to “pay for themselves.”

What a joke. I’m not a big football fan, but my student fee money pays for their revenue shortfalls while programs I care about get cut or simply ignored. And then people wonder why UMD can’t maintain a level of state support . . .

by dmor20 on Jan 26, 2012 6:56 PM EST reply actions  

don't judge football when you don't even care about it

Since you aren’t a big fan, who are you to judge a good hire vs a bad one? Do you want to elaborate on who you think the bad hire is? Judging by the 500k remark, I’m guessing Locksley.

Locksleys hire has already turned Albert Reid (4 star athlete) from WVU to MD. He has had several top recruits reconsider MD for football making all of us not able to wait for the 2013 recruiting class. Get over yourself and the 500k for Locksley isn’t worth it remarks. He is worth the 500k in recruiting alone, not to mention he isn’t a bad offensive coordinator. He sucked as a head coach, we all know that, but that doesn’t take anything away from his ability to call an offense or recruit.

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought Pensky was making 100k plus

100k – 25k per year for 4 years?

"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."

by bball purist on Jan 27, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we should pay

Sir Alex Ferguson to be our next women’s coach!

I like Turtles!

by RedTurtle on Jan 26, 2012 8:04 PM EST reply actions  

Is this the same coach

Who let my ex girlfriend and her elon team travel to md and beat an acc team? Cause if so there is no reason she should be getting some monster raise…. And that game was in 2009 so I’m thinking it is the same coach, but I’m not putting in the effort to research women’s soccer

by Charlotte NC Terp on Jan 26, 2012 10:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

point is

who cares about umd women’s soccer? very few

by tmoneyttime1 on Jan 26, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I care just because the Terp women have kicked ass

the past 3 years in the ACC. And living in the NC Triangle, I’m always proud when any Terp team whips on NC St., UNC or Puke in any sport.

UT will dump Brian if he has 2 losing seasons in a row, cause UT fans are idiots.

by Snappin Terp on Jan 26, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure exactly

I like it though. Cheesy, yes, but it’s all in the name of some MD pride. And it’s fun to check the hashtag sometimes to see what fans are saying.

by terpfan92 on Jan 27, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess

But two points:

First, I don’t think anyone is rooting against the Women’s Soccer team. As far as collegiate women’s soccer goes—the Lady Terps are my favorite team! That said, I have never, and almost assuredly will never, make a point of watching a collegiate women’s soccer game. Because I’m a Terp they are my favorite team. But being a Terp doesn’t make me all of a sudden care about anything and everything connected to the University.

Second, the budget shortfall facing the University is very real. In a perfect world, I’m with everyone else—give Pensky a raise! Unfortunately, we are left with the very real problem of having to cut costs. Giving him a raise means we take that money away from another program that is part of “TerpNation.”

Speaking just for myself, this seems like a good, if regrettable decision. Even if we are #1 in the country in women’s soccer we will lose money on the program. It seems that we need to limit costs in those programs where there is no chance of producing profits. Invest in the programs that have the potential to bring in substantial profits—football and men’s basketball. Cutting corners with those programs could lead to decreased profits, which would damage the entire Athletic Department. Cutting corners in the non-revenue sports just limits losses—it doesn’t limit potential profits.

Maybe a cold-hearted calculus, but anything else is just fanciful.

by bshock on Jan 27, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

And yes, I know you were just having fun with the TerpNation thing

sorry to give you a point-by-point response. Just thought those points were relevant somewhere in this conversation, haha.

by bshock on Jan 27, 2012 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, way to be fiscally responsible - stiff your winning head coach $25k or so . . . save that money and then

throw $600k at another loser football assistant. Yeah. That’ll get you so far ahead you can afford some more luxury suites that Byrd – empty cavern – cough – Stadium so desperately needs. Then you can fire some profs and cut more sports because you’ve increased your deficit again . . .

It’s like a retard echo chamber down in here . . .

by dmor20 on Jan 27, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

and you are now slowly becoming one of those posters

who all of us are going to continually ignore because of your ignorant posts directed at a sport by your own admission don’t care about.

Let me guess, you’d like us to throw that 600k to womens soccer or track and field? Yep, there is a solid investment. At least with football, our 500k we threw at locksley is going to pay off by bringing in the talent we need to win and fill the seats in the stadium.

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

You'll have to accept I think you're an idiot.

Why not throw $25k (otherwise known as “chump change”) at women’s soccer? With football, my point is (and you know it or you’re illiterate, whatever) is that we paid about $300k TOO MUCH for Locks. We also paid that much for the new DC (are we still paying the old OC/DC? I don’t know, but it wouldn’t surprise me).

I also seriously doubt Locks will “bring in the talent we need to win” – I think it’s likely that he “brings in the talent that will make games closer and get RE fired.”

Also, please don’t talk about paying football coaches SEC wages and “solid investment” in the same sentence. Maryland is throwing good money after bad in football right now, and the $25k or so it would have taken to keep Pensky was/is/will be chump change (and less than it costs to replace him with someone who may not be as good). I want Maryland to be smart and successful in ALL sports, including football. YOU just want to destroy the athletic department and blow money on football desperation moves.

by dmor20 on Jan 27, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

The way you are acting towards football

it appears that you’d rather spend as little money on coordinators and wait for RE to leave before trying to be relevant again. Unfortunately, if we took that route the football program would be in a worse state than now.

Your argument is as good as mine whether locksley is worth the money, because that is all in each of our perspectives until we see him play, and more importantly wait a year to see his recruits start to play. I’m not sure where you get the idea though that Locksley is worth not even half of what we are paying him. He is not just an Offensive Coordinator, he is a recruiting coordinator as well. Other schools pay people to do that as there sole job, and they get paid six figure salaries to do so. Locksley is arguably one of the best DC area recruiters in the nation, I don’t think there is any arguing that. So much so that he had Cyrus Koindijio (sp) having New Mexico in his top 3 last year. So I’d argue that Locksley is worth the money if he is pulling top talent to MD so we can field a team that competes every single weekend.

I’ll take hte fault for reading your statement wrong on the 25k though, I thought you were talking you’d rather have the 500k spent on another program. I’ll still argue though, as Charlotte did above, we need to focus on getting our revenue generating sports competitive again so we are then able to hire and retain who we need to in the non-revenue generating sports. (I use the term revenue…but really, profit bearing sports).

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

"Good money after bad"

You didn’t use it correctly.

The term relates to the concept of sunk costs. Once you make an expenditure you can’t get back, it is a sunk cost. To continue spending money on a failed experiment just because of that initial sunk cost is “throwing good money after bad.”

The idea of spending money to replace our football coaches is inherently NOT “throwing good money after bad” because we are spending the money to correct a failed experiment—not to perpetuate it.

Your entire position is based on nothing but baseless conjecture—that Locksley’s market rate was significantly lower than what we offered, and that Locksley will not be successful. I have seen no evidence in support of the former.

As to the latter, it is certainly a possibility. Investments are risks—sometimes they don’t work out, and you take a loss on the investment. But that was the point of my original post—at least with this investment, there is a CHANCE at a profit—which is not the case with increased spending on the women’s soccer team.

by bshock on Jan 27, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

He didn't say throw $600K to a women's coach

He said throw $25K. At least argue the points he’s making.

"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Proud member of Trainyard Sleepers, BECW: S2
We're gonna win, you know. Stats lie.

by duck on Jan 27, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

My fault

I thought he was arguing over the 500k, not 25k.

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

was it really 25k?

25k per year?

"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."

by bball purist on Jan 27, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

From what I've heard

Pensky had an offer from Tenn a few weeks ago, was able to work something and turned Tenn down. Eariler this week, Tenn came back with another offer (a decent multiplier of his current salary) and MD was not able to offer. MD came up some, but couldn’t come up to the second offer of Tenn.

by PhillyTerp on Jan 28, 2012 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Aside from coaching salaries, what do football and basketball need at this point?

What facilities need upgrading?

I keep hearing this point – we need to invest in football! Where? How many more weights and blocking sleds do they need? We already “upgraded” Byrd Stadium by adding 15K+ seats we can’t fill. What is it we’re lacking that other ACC schools have, ESPECIALLY in mens’ basketball? There’s not a better venue than Comcast in the league. So what do we need to spend on them we’re not already spending?

And attendance at non-rev sports will increase as they are more successful. Yes, wrestling draws only 750 or so to a dual meet, but it beats the days of when they were drawing 150. Build successful non-rev programs, and fans of that sport and the university will come.

"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Proud member of Trainyard Sleepers, BECW: S2
We're gonna win, you know. Stats lie.

by duck on Jan 27, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Football and basketball

I’m not sure we need infrastructure improvements as much as we needed to be spending in other places. MD ranked last in spending on those sports because of the approach taken to recruiting, moreso in basketball than football. We didn’t come close to traveling as much as other schools did to visit recruits and try to get them to come here as other schools. If you are referring to the article that came up the other day I think it was talking recruiting.

I agree we don’t need to add to Byrd or Comcast, both are great venues. We can’t fill Byrd, so we don’t need to expand it that is for sure.

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Increased investment

In coaching staff salaries, marketing, recruiting budgets, field upgrades (not stadium, but field).

Further, I’m sure no one would complain about state-of-the art locker rooms, weight rooms, trainers, practice field, video equipment, etc.

by bshock on Jan 27, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

haha, thanks for elaborating

I wasn’t even thinking there, I couldn’t get out of my head how little we spent on recruiting. God yes do we need a better field at the football stadium, it is complete garbage. What is even worse is that we have turf and grass management as a major, and that department has attempted to offer there services for free to help take care of the field. What did the athletic dept do? Deny it of course!

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's the point

Even the best women’s soccer teams lose money. Increasing our expenses will not increase our revenues at a 1:1 ratio. We will spend an extra dollar to make an extra 80 cents—even if we push all the right buttons, make all the right moves, and become the best program in the country.

Good football teams make a lot of money. Increasing our expenses (if done correctly) can lead to a greater increase of revenues. We will spend an extra dollar to make an extra 2 dollars.

Obviously, this depends on making smart investments. But to me: invest in football = chance at making money; invest in women’s soccer = no chance at making money.

I get that there is more than money that needs to be considered. But from a financial standpoint only—it doesn’t make sense to increase our investment in the programs that don’t stand a chance of turning a profit.

by bshock on Jan 27, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

and speaking of baseless conjectures

the idea that spending an extra $1million on assistant coaches will produce $1million in extra revenue would certainly be that. Actually, it is worse than baseless because we’ve already shown that UMD’s football “investments” (i.e. luxury suites) have simply lead to larger overall athletic deficits, NOT profitability. So in football you’re spending an extra million so you can lose money.

The amount of lying and selective accounting necessary to maintain the fiction of Terp football profits makes the discussion pointless. And that doesn’t mean football is bad, it’s just that being a fan doesn’t have to mean being a sucker.

by dmor20 on Jan 27, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

It's actually the opposite of a baseless conjecture

Football is called a “revenue” sport for a reason. (It would be more correct to call it a “profit sport” but whatever). It makes money.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/02/24/acc-football-not-cash-cow-like-sec-and-big-ten/

In 2009-10 we spent $9,863,748 on our program. We generated $11,540,368 in revenue. In other words, for every $1.00 we spent on football, we received approximately $1.17 (for a 17 cent profit on each dollar spent).

I don’t think we have maxed out our profits (in other words, I don’t think we are yet at the point of diminishing marginal returns). Georgia Tech, for example, made $1.60 for each $1.00 spent, and they spent about $6 million more than we did that year.

Judging by your unwillingness to provide anything but hyperbole and opinion, I doubt you’ll say anything but “those are accounting tricks, you idiot.” But I figured it was worth a shot.

by bshock on Jan 27, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

you can't judge the return on investment of luxury suites after one year

They aren’t an expense that only pays off once. They have recurring revenues each year from rental fees. Therefore, the lxuury suites do pay for themselves, the argument should rather be on how fast you think that will occur.

The fact that you think an investment leads to larger overall deficits is nonsense. In the short term it will show a defecit for the up front investment, but in the long term the revenues generated will help the overall profit line.

When making an investment, you don’t look for short term profitability, you look for long term profitability. If your only goal is short term success your program will never be sustainable.

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I was simplifying, but here's what the NCAA's latest report says:

When you say football is “profitable” – that’s if you have the rest of the athletic department (or the school) pay for stuff like Byrd Stadium. If football was generating ACTUAL profits, UMD wouldn’t be projecting ever expanding deficits (which they are). The truth is that the projections of luxury suite revenue is NOT expected to cover costs of building & maintaining them. But the revenue from rentals will count towards football, while the costs are charged elsewhere – so I guess that means football is “profitable” if you accept that “profitable” is a term with no real meaning. FWIW, that doesn’t mean that UMD doesn’t need an indoor practice facility for football – that’d be a smart investment (and if you rent it out it could actually get close to cashflow depending on how cost-effectively you build – like do you use an inflatable dome so you can rent out the field in the summer?)

Here’s the NCAA wide breakdown: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/151b42804e0dac199f62ff1ad6fc8b25/empirical_effects_of_collegiate_athletics_interim_report.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=151b42804e0dac199f62ff1ad6fc8b25

Hypothesis #4: Increased operating expenditures on football or basketball, on
average, are not associated with any medium-term increase or decrease in operating
net revenue.
• Our statistical analyses suggest that between 1993 and 2001, an increase in
operating expenditures of $1 on football or men’s basketball in Division I-A was
associated with approximately $1 in additional operating revenue, on average.
The implication is that spending an extra $1 was not associated with any increase
or decrease in net revenue, on average, from these sports.

• We conclude that over the medium term (eight years), increases in operating
expenditures on football or men’s basketball are not associated with any change,
on average, in operating net revenue.

I would point out that:
Capital expenses: Some athletic programs carry the costs of all their athletic
facilities on their own books, while other schools carry such costs on the general
university ledger. Roughly half the respondents indicated that all athletic capital
expenditures were captured by the NCAA/EADA report, and the other half
indicated that at least part of capital spending was not.
• Indirect costs: Schools vary in whether they charge the athletic department with
part of the university’s indirect costs. Roughly half the respondents indicated that
at least some indirect costs were attributed to the athletic department and reflected
on the NCAA/EADA forms; the other half reported that no indirect costs were
included.

by dmor20 on Jan 27, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Rodney Dangerfield:

“I was on a college sports blog and an accounting fight broke out!”

"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."

by bball purist on Jan 27, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Calling you out on your bogus quote

I’m apologizing now for sounding like a complete ass, but my biggest pet peave is somebody who purposely leaves out parts of a quote in an attempt to prove there point, when the left out portions of the quote completely disprove there point.

A) If you are going to quote a hyothesis with its conclusions, quote all of the summarized conclusions and not just the ones that support your case. So, lets delve into the point you left off (and the one that pertains to the argument):

“These results, although based on better data than previous studies, nonetheless have limitations. For example, our database extends only from 1993 to 2001. It is possible that increased spending on athletics has long lags – that is, it produces significant benefits or costs after a long period of time. If this were the case, our database may be too short to capture the “true” effects of increased spending. In addition, the NCAA/EADA data do not adequately record capital expenditures; our analysis therefore focuses on operational spending. It is possible the effects of operational spending differ from the effects of capital spending.

Further into the report, past the summaries and into the meat of it, the author had this to say about the limitations of there analysis with regards to the above hypothesis:

“…we therefore excluded all reported capital expenses (including debt service costs) and focused only on operating expenses. The analysis is thus inherently limited by the available data, and the conclusions should not necessarily be extended to behavior with regard to capital expenditures.”

So, what were you saying about how this report proves your point? because after reading the entire section regarding your quoted hypothesis, all it does is disprove your point completely.

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Further...

B) I agree with you on the indoor facility. They need turf and an indoor facility in which to practice, and yes they could in all reality rent it out in the off-season. But wouldn’t using projected revenues from possibly renting this out be the same thing as the projected revenues from the luxury suites? We thought we were going to be able to fill them at the time, and it turns out we didnt.

I’m really not trying to be an ass, sorry for posting that way. I like that you brought out evidence, you just touched my big pet peave when you didn’t use the full quote, and when the full quote in context completely changes the meaning of it.

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

actually the reasons for the methodology are in the data reporting limitations

which are addressed in the part I quoted. I linked to the entire paper with it’s 5 or 6 hypothesis (sp?). If they included capital spending, they’d just be further in the hole – if it lead to profit they’d be shouting those figures from the rooftops!

Look you believe what you believe:

Maryland should pay top $$ for football coaches, spend unlimited money on Byrd/Comcast and that someday, magically it’ll make money for the university (or result in wins).

You’re allowed to think that.

You’re just wrong. I think Maryland should be VERY reticent to pay beyond ACC median salaries in football and for administration expenses (i.e. live within their means), because UMD has consistently gotten good value from quality cheap hires and less value from marquee hires where they overpay. If Locks gets his guys and the team goes 12-0 (or 9-3 . . . that’d be nice) I STILL don’t think financially the school will be ahead . . . (especially after they lose money on going to the middle of nowhere bowl, but of course the only number you’ll think about will be the payout – not the unsold tix the school buys or the cost of travel for the team & entourage – google University of Wisconsin and see how much they lost going to the ROSE BOWL).

I think when they have homegrown staff and the opportunity to retain them for relatively small amounts of money, it’s beyond hypocritical to say it’s about “cost savings/cost control.” The truth is $50k more for your soccer coach isn’t even going to make a decimal place difference in UMD’s budget problems. It’s simply a symptom of stupid administration.

I totally support your right to have a different (though less valid) opinion.

by dmor20 on Jan 27, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

so your solution

is to pay ACC average to the coaches and just be a middle of the pack program. How can you even accept that as a fan?

I agree with you about the soccer coach, 25-50k isn’t that much, but from a pure financial perspective it does not make sense. From a business perspective it does not make sense. You get your revenue generating sports (the ones that actually have a chance of breaking even or generating a profit) in order before you take care of the other sports.

My point regarding the data was that it purposely excluded capital spending, and that is what we are arguing about. The authors went as far as to say that there sample set of data may not of been long enough to realize the losses and/or gains from the increases and decreases in operational spending. They made no assertions as to the possible affects of spending in capital spending, as they purposely excluded it from the study. So, your opinion on capital spending and the potential losses or gains from it have just as much foundation as mine do.

The study is about operational spending, not capital. So, your points are just what you believe mine to be, opinion. I applaud you for trying to find evidence of the contrary, but at least read the section next time before quoting its summarized conclusions. Oh, and quote the entire set of conclusions, not just the ones that help you.

by djcarv2005 on Jan 27, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

actually your wrong again

the data was purposely excluded capital expenditures because schools hide them on their balance sheet (you know “don’t report them”). The “PC not taking a position” is in no way a prediction that capital expenditures would show a positive ROI. I’m sorry, but the report absolutely backs my point. Your dinging me because I couldn’t predict your misreading/selective reading of it.

Once again, you’re more than entitled to your opinion. You’re just impervious to evidence . . .

Now if you have evidence that UMD’s hires with the highest initial salaries are always the department’s high flyers . . . THAT I’d like to see. I think if you look at Fridge/Williams/Sasho/Pensky/Timschal and maybe even Friese (she was a high profile hire – but I don’t think she came in as one of the highest paid ACC coaches) you’ll see UMD’s less highly paid crew has excelled where premium coaches have not. Once again, you don’t agree so misrepresent or whatever.

by dmor20 on Jan 27, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

what don't you understand that the study doesn't look at capital expenditures

we are arguing over the value of the lxuury suites at byrd stadium and whether you believe that expenditure pays for itself. The luxury suites at byrd stadium are a capital expenditure, not an operational expenditure. Therefore, this study does not apply, since it purposely does not evaluate capital expenditures.

If you want to argue operational expenditures, such as hiring additional personnel for gameday, or turning the lights off earlier, those are operational expenditures.

Capital expenditures always end up paying for themselves at a University, because unlike a business, the University is not going to go out of business. So therefore, at some point, the suites will pay for themselves at begin to generate a profit each year, the argument should be when that point is as opposed to whether it will ever happen. You say it yourself when you mention how we would rent out the bubble for an indoor facility to others when it isn’t being used, that is how we would pay for it. This is the exact same concept.

by djcarv2005 on Jan 28, 2012 6:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I find your logic on coaching hires to be very strange

I haven’t read through this entire thread because none of it makes sense to me because I don’t have economics or accounting degree, so continue on discussing whatever random stuff it is that you’re discussing.

But …

I think Maryland should be VERY reticent to pay beyond ACC median salaries in football and for administration expenses (i.e. live within their means), because UMD has consistently gotten good value from quality cheap hires and less value from marquee hires where they overpay. If Locks gets his guys and the team goes 12-0 (or 9-3 . . . that’d be nice) I STILL don’t think financially the school will be ahead . . . (especially after they lose money on going to the middle of nowhere bowl, but of course the only number you’ll think about will be the payout – not the unsold tix the school buys or the cost of travel for the team & entourage – google University of Wisconsin and see how much they lost going to the ROSE BOWL).

is a bit ridiculous. I hear it a lot and it just makes no sense. You seem to be saying here that when Maryland overpays the coach is bad and when Maryland makes cheap hires the coach is good. Obviously you never want to overpay – by definition if you overpay for someone they are a disappointment. But a cheaper hire isn’t a better hire simply by being cheaper. The idea that we should look at the bottom because that’s where the real steals are, while avoiding all of those over-priced and overrated losers at the top, is so general and oversimplifying as to be laughable. Are there steals out there? Yup. Are there coaches worth big salaries? Yup. You have to judge them individually.

And saying that they still wouldn’t financially be ahead after an undefeated season is absurd. An Orange Bowl out of a 9-3 year – let’s look at something that could actually happen – would be a ridiculously good financial turnout for the AD. You look down on the people who’ll “only look at the payout” while you’re not looking at the other positive benefits of a 9-3 year when you go to the BCS. Do you lose money on the bowl? Yes. You also sell way more merchandise and thousands of extra tickets in the regular season, plus thousands of season tickets for the next year. Not to mention the absurd positive economic benefits it has on publicity for the athletic program and the university as a whole. If everybody loses money on bowls, why do they go? To reward the players? Uh, no. College athletics is a business, and the secondary benefits of a huge bowl game like that are astronomical.

Look, I’m not saying the only way to a successful football team is through spending big money. Look at Temple: they sucked at the beginning of the decade, made the right hire in Al Golden, and without any real changes to the budget became a bowl team. The most important thing is hiring the right guy. But spending the right money, and wise money, is still critical, and can greatly expand a program’s ceiling and minimize the time it takes to realize that ceiling.

Maryland’s athletic department made a series of dumb investments in the football program – Byrd expansion chief among them, but also the Crowton and Bradford (and potentially Edsall) hires. That doesn’t mean all investments in football are dumb. It means we shouldn’t make dumb investments again, in any sport.

by Ben Broman on Jan 27, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

when you make hires you can afford

you can afford to make mistakes. Since the current admin is going to make mistakes, they shouldn’t compound it by locking those mistakes in at super-high wages and long term contracts.

By overpaying for hires, UMD ensures that the dumb investments stick around and the smart ones who can set their own market leave anyway.

Regardless, I’m baffled at how anyone can think that stiffing a guy like Pensky over $25k or so makes sense. Obviously KA thinks it does, but that would seem to support my point. In fact, I seriously doubt this decision saves the university a single penny. (it costs to hire, and do you think they’ll hire an ACC contending coach for LESS than Pensky’s market value?)

I’m out.

by dmor20 on Jan 27, 2012 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

You correlate "big-money hire" with "overpaying".

Giving Crowton $500k and giving Locksley $500k aren’t one in the same. They have different values, different demand for their services, and will bring different returns on their salaries.

Without that, all you said was “It’s bad to make mistakes and it’s worse when you pay those mistakes too much.” Which is obvious. It’s also not a reason to not give out sizable contracts to those who deserve them. It’s just a reason not to make mistakes.

Re: Pensky, I’m really ambivalent on the matter. I find it unlikely that Pensky made his decision over $25k a year – is that a real figure, or was it just randomly thrown out? Unlike big coaching hires we’ll have minimal insight into the decision-making process. Maybe he just wanted to go to a program with a real stadium, maybe he hated KA, maybe he felt like he had a better chance of success at Tennessee. I don’t know. All I know is that you’ve used this opportunity to hit out at spending on revs, which is silly.

by Ben Broman on Jan 27, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Even ignoring

the fact that the study you reference is from 15-20 years ago (I can only imagine how much the business of college sports has changed in two decades), I will cede to one point:

Making money depends on GOOD investments. I don’t think anyone here think that simply throwing money at the football program will turn a profit. But making smart investments on necessary improvements has a very good chance to do just that.

Even if I were to admit that the luxury sky boxes are a “loss” (I will also leave aside djcarv2005’s thoughtful arguments below), that doesn’t prove your point. It is anecdotal evidence of what everyone already knows—bad investments don’t make money. We probably shouldn’t spend 20 million dollars to have Janet Jackson do a halftime show either. That doesn’t mean good investments won’t turn a profit.

The whole point is that with the non-revenues, you have virtually no chance of generating a positive return on your investment. With football and basketball you at least have the CHANCE to make a positive return—as long as you make smart investments.

by bshock on Jan 28, 2012 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Our football facilities are kind of awful

We screwed up with Byrd and are stuck with it for awhile. But we desperately need to get a turf field and some form of indoor practice facility.

by Ben Broman on Jan 27, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Never said the decision was bad or wrong

I was directly responding to someone who said “Who cares about umd women’s soccer?” As far as I’m concerned, I love sports and I love Maryland. Therefore a Terp sport/game is always of interest to me. It’s why my parents and I drove an hour two days in a row last May to see the UMD women’s lacrosse team in the Final Four/NC game. (Was on LI where I live). I didn’t even know the rules to lacrosse and had never been to a lacrosse game but like I said, Terps are Terps, and they were going for a Natty, so I wanted to be there. And I had a good time despite the loss, and now I want to get to a couple men’s and women’s lacrosse games this year.

by terpfan92 on Jan 27, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Tennessee

Their athletic department is sick. They take care of there coaches, maybe a little too much Pearl and Kiffin, but will go to bat for them no matter what. Also they pay well. The UT Womens Soccer team is national ranked and a lateral move in my opinion.

Cost of living down here is like half of what it is in Maryland, so getting more money and have half the cost of living in a nicer part of the country with less expectations at a womens program….NO BRAINER!!! Not to mention he gets away from Kevin Fucking Anderson.

by El Goodd Terps13 on Jan 27, 2012 11:39 AM EST reply actions  

Brian goes to Tenn

not sure if he had a relationship with any of the other coaches at Tenn or others in the atheletic dept…it would appear to be a lateral move….but if the salary and perks were higher….if probaby makes sense give the state of flux in the Md AD’s dept….somewhere I read that Brian felt like the Tenn athletic group seemed more like a family..and if this was correct..just about all the shot at KA that was needed….for MD…it’s a shame to loose a local guy..who played and coached here……for Tenn..a good get…..for Brian and his family…hope it is a good move

by charlessr on Jan 27, 2012 1:23 PM EST reply actions  

lost in the weeds . . .

the point isn’t some detailed argument about Maryland revenue. The point is that it’s stupid to lose a good, home grown coach over chump change. And since the difference between the highest paid D1 coach and Pensky’s UMD salary was about $50k last year, we’re not talking about big money.

As a Maryland fan, it sucks to lose a good coach and good person. I wish him well, but I also doubt he wanted to move to Knoxville and leave the ACC.

by dmor20 on Jan 28, 2012 8:58 AM EST reply actions  

Dmor20 is right

To lose a NCAA championship coach (even if it is womens soccer) over 25k is stupid. And it is worse when you see the money that UMD is actually wasting every year….KA has literally flushed millions $$ down the toilet on wasteful hires, outrageous contracts and premature firings……We have become the Daniel Snyder town of college athletics….the place where overpriced, underperforming coaches and administrators cash in on past success and deliver mediocre results

by TerpfanMA on Jan 28, 2012 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

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