Schadenfreude: West Virginia Already Applied to, Turned Down by ACC
by Ben Broman on Sep 20, 2011 2:08 PM EDT
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PrintI mentioned West Virginia as a possible candidate for ACC expansion yesterday, but dismissed them as unlikely and not a great match. Being turned down by the SEC did nothing to make them more attractive in my book. Looks like the rest of the ACC agrees. Via CBS' ultra-reliable Brett McMurphy.
Multiple Big East sources said they have been told by WVU officials that WVU rejected by ACC & SEC
Ouch. Also, haha. More than a little schadenfreude in there.
I think we could argue all day long whether or not West Virginia would fit in with the ACC, but it looks like a moot point now. I have academic and cultural concerns on both counts, but, as Debbie Yow would say, y'know, whatever. Doesn't matter anymore.
I'm still expecting UConn and Rutgers to be the most likely additions, with Louisville as a darkhorse and Notre Dame and Penn State as the pipe dream candidates to whom overtures will be made. Grabbing either would be pretty incredible, though highly unlikely. The carousel isn't stopping anytime soon.
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HAHAHA
EPIC
Atleast the MAC would take them and share the TV market with Marshall.
What's missing with WVA?
Above average academics and mediocre athletics. Would drag down most every conference academically and they’ve never won a SINGLE national championship in any sport. Compare to strong academics at Maryland and isn’t it weird when there is a year they don’t win a national championship in SOME sport?
I think of conference expansion like recruiting
Why wouldn’t Notre Dame call Penn State and say "Hey, lets play ball for the ACC together."
I like Turtles!
Follow @RedTerrapin
by RedTurtle on Sep 20, 2011 2:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
thats what i was thinking
Notre dame has to realize that they can’t survive as an independent once these super conferences get built up. And penn state should look at this as a way to be the leaders of a big conference that is much better for them geographically and introduces natural rivals like us.
My issue with Notre Dame is...
Doesn’t the B1G offer them pretty much everything that the ACC does, but arguably better?
just saw something on ESPN
that said, ND would prefer to stay independent but if they were forced into a conference it would be the ACC. so it looks like its either they stay independent or ACC and you gotta like those chances
Acc
has the academic reputation and better basketball. I can’t remember the revenue numbers for the b1g vs the acc in football but its not too much better.
With Michigan, Wisconsin, PSU, Northwestern...
Isn’t the Big 10 even with the ACC in academics, at worst? In basketball, it’s debatable about which conference is currently stronger top to bottom in basketball (although historically, that honor would go to the ACC.) But from a football stand point, which is the driving factor in the debate, I think it’s tough to argue that the ACC is better than the Big10. Although I admittedly don’t know the revenue numbers either.
I heard the reason why Notre Dame would go ACC over B1G is related to the fact that the East Coast’s population is rising rapidly while the Midwest’s population growth is stagnant, and even declining in some places.
Doesn’t make much sense to me since Notre Dame’s name and brand are very well known, but I certainly won’t tell them no
I believe that a lot of that growth is happening in the Southeast
Where I believe you’re fighting for market share amongst much more entrenched football interests. But it’s a fair point, especially since a lot of that emigration is going from the Midwest to the Southeast.
However, my argument was in response to the comparison of the Big10 to the ACC in terms of academics, basketball, and football. For those reasons, it seems like the Big10 is a better fit for ND.
All that being said, I would be very happy to welcome ND to the ACC.
Big Ten certainly has the MUCH better acadmic rep
The only country that has a legitimate academic effect on their members. B1G academics are big-time.
But I do think it’d be pretty stupid to join a conference based on current population trends. Trends change. Midwest cities like Columbus and Indy are already recovering, Pittsburgh already has (and the city itself will remain Midwestern), some cities like Milwaukee are getting there. Obviously the SE is getting more and more populated, but the same was happening in the Midwest a few decades ago. Again, trends change.
And like you said, the football interests are pretty well established there. A lot more competition. Besides, ND recruits nationally.
Country = conference? I assume
I didn’t see/read the article that testudo13 was referencing. I was mostly trying to work out to myself the reasoning that he gave. And your analysis is spot on.
In the end, it doesn’t make sense to me why Notre Dame would pick the ACC over the Big10. Unless, of course, the financials that the ACC can provide are that much greater than the Big10.
"Much better academic rep"? By vague impression or actual facts?
I just checked the US News rankings and the average ranking for ACC schools is a little better than the average Big 10 school. In fact, Northwestern is what makes it close.
Avg. ranking isn't a big deal
CIC is what makes the difference. It’s the academic consortium of the B1G schools plus UChicago. There’s heavy collaboration that results in cheaper research, more efficient research, more research opportunities, etc.
In fact, joining the B10 (and thus getting access to the CIC) is one of the big reasons Penn State has seen a big increase in its academic rep in the past decade or so.
Which is why I ultimately want...
…Maryland in the Big Ten, conference football and basketball prowess be damned (though it’s no slouch in either).
well, ACC more suited for ND
solid bball program, fball program that actually could compete in the ACC rather than get beat up week after week in the B1G.
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 20, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't have any major problems against WVU...
wouldn’t mind them coming to the ACC.
* Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
.
.
* If you think Greivis Vasquez is a better Terp than Joe Smith, you have impeached yourself and have no credibility when speaking of Maryland basketball.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 20, 2011 2:24 PM EDT reply actions
Small Market
Me either. They have a great following and tremendous pride, but their state doesn’t border the Atl Ocean. The ACC needs to expand northwardinto new markets and stay on the Atlantic Coast . Looks like Penn State,UConn, Temple or Rutgers for best market value and still keep it as a school that is in a state that is on the Atlantic Coast. Jussayin’ ….. Otherwise, it’s just a Hodgepodge of schools with a fake conference name.
by TwerpsNoMore on Sep 20, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess Georgia has a coast
but GT is far from a coastal school. No reason to not expand westward. Its closer to most teams than it is for us to expand north.
Not Gonna Happen Apparently
So glad too. As I have said in other posts, they do resemble an ACC school at all, culturally and definitely not academically. Yea right does Duke, BC, MD, UNC, etc tarnish their reputation by having them in the league…it was never going to happen.
*All Terp Everything*
Checked out the smoking musket blog
Some are reporting that the SEC hasn’t rejected WVU. Just waiting on Texas AM situation to be resolved. Kinda feel sorry for them. They have a huge game aganist LSU this weekend and this is a major distraction. They are just not sure of their future.
Seems like WVU and the Big East's best option at this point is to merge with the remaining Big XII, which has been discussed
USF
Cincinnati
WVU
Baylor
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa
Iowa State
TCU?
Louisville
Mizzou (if not taken by SEC)
Maybe they try to add Boise, Houston, SMU… It doesn’t look to terrible for football.
So what do you name this new conference? The Trans-American Conference, We Spend 3 Days a Week Traveling Conference, The Big Rejects Conference…?
Name jokes aside and the geographic awkwardness
It’s not a bad football conference. Not as good as the ACC though. And far from SEC/B1G/PAC. Actually, it is the worst conference.
The Conference of Misfit Toys
What else?
by vp19 on Sep 20, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Been hearing a lot of chatter.
The SEC still wants to take someone from the ACC like Virginia Tech, Clemson, FelonySU. Do we need to be sleeping with one eye opened for awhile? I’m aware of the $20 Million exit fee, but still.
Buyout Clause
Wasn’t the new $20M exit fee just voted on by the member institutions? I would find it very odd if an ACC school jumped given the timing of the increase. Believe that the fee was $5-7M before – would have to be a VERY sweet deal to jump in order to offset what would essentially be a wasted $13-15M.
Mizzou invited to the SEC
Lots of chatter on the twitter front about that.
Also read an article on Yahoo! Sports this morning saying that Notre Dame should prefer the ACC to the B1G for recruiting purposes and that the ACC would have less of a problem with their existing NBC TV deal. Here’s hoping for Notre Dame/Penn State, that would be amazing.
this is awesome
wait til all the 16-team confernces are formed….
then we’ll be talking about expanding to 32-team confernces…..
then D1 will become one big conference….
then the sub divisions will split and become the new 8-team conferences….
by t.shug on Sep 20, 2011 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
and then the 2A will finally be obliterated and there'll be all independents! Sweet!
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 20, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I really hope
that WVU is rejected / not considered by the All Crap Conference, because I wouldn’t want us to be associated with that level of mediocrity.
"Yes, madam, I am drunk. But in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." -- Winston Churchill
Yeah guess you'd rather be associated with whatever the hell becomes of that decrepit conference
Have fun with your road trips to Ames and Waco.
A conference so bad that you got your coach from there...
"Yes, madam, I am drunk. But in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." -- Winston Churchill
by Pepperoni Roll on Sep 20, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
All great coaches have to have a stepping stone from somewhere crappy...
Look at Bear Bryant!
(Oh, look at what he did there with the self-deprecation.)
+1
And wow do they not party and act like idiots in Tallahassee, Blackburg, College Park, Miami? The Wine and Cheese schools are the minority….Duke, UNC, UVA, Wake….WVU would be a kickass addition and so would Louisville…..anywho so when do they approve UConn and RU? Get this madness over with.
Or like loosing for six years in a row to WVU?
"Yes, madam, I am drunk. But in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." -- Winston Churchill
by Pepperoni Roll on Sep 20, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what, I do feel bad for you
Your school is about to get left behind, and they don’t deserve it. The best football school in the Big East deserves better than that. I work with a WVU grad (kudos to him for graduating in four years without adding 1-2 years on because of all of the alcohol and meth on campus) and he’s been despondent all day. I feel for him, I really do.
As far as losing to WVU, yes, you have every right to ridicule us for losing to a supposed rival 6 tries in a row. There’s no excuse for that. But your attempt to deflect the crapitude of your conference has not gone unnoticed, sir.
It was bound to happen...
Small state, no corner on a major TV market. It is all about the money, not the students, and WV is used to this kind of treatment, so it shouldn’t surprise us. I just didn’t see the ACC as a big upgrade, especially in basketball.
"Yes, madam, I am drunk. But in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." -- Winston Churchill
by Pepperoni Roll on Sep 20, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
upgrade to what?
you dont really have a conference anymore
As much as it pains me to say it, yea, it's not an upgrade in basketball
The future ACC (with the addition of ’Cuse/Pitt) could be back to where it belongs, though.
However, expansion is about money, and that means football.
I think I need to put my friend and co-worker WVU fan on suicide watch…
you realize that your school tried and FAILED to get into
the “All Crap Conference” so that means that shit doesnt even want you? in good news have fun dominating Conference USA! that yearly game vs memphis should be a barn burner
by terps3030 on Sep 20, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As I stated, I am thankful that we were either rejected or not considered, whichever may be the case.
"Yes, madam, I am drunk. But in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." -- Winston Churchill
by Pepperoni Roll on Sep 20, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
In a "Thank you Sir, may I have Another?" Animal House kinda way? LOLOLOLOL
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 20, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Now turn down UConn too
and reel in Notre Dame and Louisville!
You make my pee-pee maker t-t-tingle.
Ignore Pepperoni Roll
because he makes us look bitter, and we probably are.
You guys can hate on us all we want. We get results. People watch us on tv. Our academics are improving every year. It’s a shame that it doesn’t seem to be enough. I don’t have an issue with Maryland, they are really one of the only 3 ACC schools I have real respect for, the other 2 being VT and FSU. I went to the WVU-UMD game and had a great with with a lot of MD fans. Hopefully wherever we end up we can continue playing you guys occasionally.
Regardless, it’s not looking good for us..
by MountaineerAirman on Sep 20, 2011 4:14 PM EDT reply actions
I really want to have a meaningful response to your post...
But I can’t get past your avatar. Well played, sir. Well played indeed.
omg - would have missed it! Thx!
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 20, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a hater
I am in the minority it seems, but I think the rivalries created by West Virginia’s admission would be fantastic. I also love the passion for WVU. We need more of that in the ACC, and that’s what concerns me about Rutgers especially. My sense is that their alum and fans are largely apathetic. I prefer WVU and I suppose UConn, assuming that ND or Penn State cannot be had. It’s obvious that WVU is not in the plans, however.
My time here has been...
…okay. I live outside of Baltimore… and I could definitely stand getting FURTHER from Baltimore… and Maryland drivers make me twitch and spaz out because they refuse to use turn signals, etc. But other than that, it’s not home, but I do enjoy it here.
I already miss the WVU-VT rivalry. I enjoy it as much if not more than the Pitt game, which we also look to lose. It’s a shame, that in a 16-team conference (if we even make it into one…) that we only get 3 OOC games, and gettign Pitt and Maryland every year doesn’t seem likely. =(
I’ll worry about that later, though. Right now I’m waiting with my finger on the trigger of the gun pointed at my head to see where WVU ends up in his realignment nonsense.
by MountaineerAirman on Sep 20, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
at least do the Deer Hunter action
and only put 1 in the chamber, and give yourself a Mitch McGary chance! LOL
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 20, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I assume you're working at Ft. Meade as part of either NSA or DISA
Like most any other place, the MD area is going to be what you make of it. My wife works at Ft. Meade and we live in Annapolis, and we love it. If you can spend any time on the Bay, it’s wonderful. No matter what you like, you can find it in MD within an hour long drive. Definitely need to get out of the B/W corridor to enjoy all that the state has to offer.
I absolutuely love...
…Annapolis. It’s one of my favorite areas I’ve ever been to. Period. I only wish I could afford to live there.
by MountaineerAirman on Sep 20, 2011 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
stop hoping for PSU and ND
ND is never going to any conference. ever. PSU is never leaving the B1G. ever.
Also no SEC school is leaving the SEC. ever.
ACC has no slam dunk option (Pitt and Cuse weren’t even complete dunks). UConn and RU makes the most sense because NYC Metro has 18 million people in it. That everyone doesn’t currently tune into to RU football just means there is nowhere to go but up. 18 million eyeballs with worth a lot of money. $$$ + no red flags = conference invites.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
and forget louisville
it doesnt matter how popular the teams are, its still louisville. the whole metro area can fit in one of nyc’s boroughs and have room to stretch out.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
Louisville makes bank
has no pro teams to compete with, and huge residential support. Look at the capacity of the Yum Center against the RAC (although the atmosphere at the RAC is pretty awesome). Rutgers football will never be big in NYC, can’t compete with the Giants and Jets. Hell, there are more Notre Dame fans in NYC than Rutgers fans. Louisville has potential, Rutgers just doesn’t seem to add much
ND doesn't have more fans in NYC than RU
unless you’ve got evidence to directly counter this and this.
louisville has no potential. that market is small and tapped out. rutgers has nothing but potential. its a simple numbers games. sell outs are great for the schools but they dont mean much for conference television ratings. a state of 9 million in a metro area of 18 million and no other college football team (the NFL and NCAA do not directly compete. i assume you, like me and most football fans, watch both), is worth far more to a conference than a city of 1.5m that has to compete with a much bigger state school. louisville is not even worth considering.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
I intended to mean that in terms of hyperbole
but yes, Lousiville is not nearly the size of NYC, Rutgers 20% share of the football market is almost equal to the share of the entire city of Louisville. Louisville brings basketball to the table though. Rutgers basketball in the ACC will probably be in a similar position in the ACC as it is presently in the Big East (occasional NIT and rare NCAA tourney appearence), and I don’t see the football team competing against Florida State, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, etc. They’ll never be a serious player in the conference. Louisville basketball is a serious money maker, and their football team likely has more potential, in my opinion, than Rutgers. To each his own though.
However, I did see something on here about Louisvilles academics, and that could very well make Rutgers a more attractive choice for the ACC.
In addition to what the ACC expansion does to Big East bball, I think it is about killing off Big East football in the northeast as much as it is getting the right football schools
I think the ACC only needs to get UConn to pull that off, but getting Rutgers too would ensure it. If I am right, Louisville and WVU have never been seriously considered for membership.
yes rutgers basketball is awful
if they can ever get their in state recruiting down though they could be a beast. and if you look at sagarin ratings, rutgers wont have a problem competing in football, at least not any more than wake, uva and duke (or syracuse for that matter). and in the future, i’m betting on the big state school over the smaller regional to be better in the long run. i dont know what sells a recruit on louisville over rutgers. stadiums named after food? i think i’d rather have ucf over louisville at this point.
but yeah, their basketball team is going to take some serious beatings, which they should be used to by now. and hey, easy win for maryland and access to nj/ny recruits.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
The three big reasons to add teams to a conference, I would think, are:
A) how much bigger they make the pie; B) TV markets; and C) the quality of the programs.
For the first one, I find these numbers particularly useful. UL’s basketball program is easily the most profitable in the country and more profitable than many football teams. Their football is average, making more than Maryland but not a ton. Basketball is in the top 20, and football is in the top 100. Combined, they make the school about $20mil. Rutgers … not so much. They hardly break even in basketball and, per the reported numbers, didn’t break even in football. 126 in basketball, 133 in football. I know some schools fudge numbers to hide certain programs losing money, and maybe that happened here, but it’s really unimpressive. Remember that UL sucked in football and wasn’t in the Yum Center for these numbers. For revenue sharing, Louisville makes everyone’s bigger. Rutgers doesn’t appear to, and will make everyone’s slice smaller.
For B, I think NYC is pretty easily bigger than Louisville, but that’s assuming solid penetration into the NYC market. The NYTimes piece does indicate that they have that, but then again they also say that BC has more fans than FSU and Duke has more fans than N.C. State, which is bullshit. NYC not only has pro sports competition – which is minimal but does exist – but more importantly because of the transient nature of the city it’s unlikely one sports team will ever have significantly more penetration than any other. There’s minimal local competition, but Rutgers has never commanded a large amount of local respect in a pro sports/basketball city, and there are enough transplants to dilute the fans they do have. I doubt they’ll ever get significantly above 20%, and that’s assuming that study is correct. Louisville, while smaller, is still worthwhile and guarantees the vast majority of the city. And while anecdotal, I’m very confident that UL has a much bigger presence in Louisville than UK. It’s not all that close.
The third criterion is pretty variant over time, but the two are fairly comparable in football – RU is probably better this year, but Strong has recruited well – and Louisville is much better in basketball, though RU is charging hard there.
The other important factors – academics and location/culture – tilt Rutgers way fairly heavily, and probably enough to tip the scales in their favor. I don’t really want to see Rutgers in the ACC, but I like them more than Louisville, which is exotic for us but will wear off quickly. But there’s definitely an argument to be made for adding them.
louisville has a lot going for them
but they dont help the acc much. all the money they make (assuming those numbers mean anything) they keep, unless they want to start sharing their home ticket sales.
and louisville is a subrub. their market is a big zilch. and its not growing. with rutges you arent getting them for their history, you are getting them for their potential. and i can stress enough, 1.5<<<<18. so the present value of the rutgers athletics dwarfs lousiville. which is not to say lousiville hasnt done a spectacular job or doesnt make money for their school or whatever, it means when youre the rest of the acc you look at the 42nd tv market in the country and laugh, then you look at the number 1 richest tv market in the world and start drooling.
so maybe its not fair and not to take anything away from lousiville, (and also anecdotally i can tell you your assumptions for rutgers fan growth in the nyc market are wrong, they have been and are still growing in popularity and pro sports are no hinderance to that growth), but from an AD’s perspective it’s a no contest for who’d you’d invite.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
Rutgers
Would be a last resort in my book. They bring nothing to the table in fball or bball. Good School though.
Uconn and Nova are all bball
WVU, Louisville and ND and both sports!!
PSU all fball
Had to check out the comments
Just to see if a Mountaineer posted asking what the heck “schadenfruede” meant
I think they asked
if that was a magic/entertainment duo in Vegas, kinda like Penn-en-Teller – lol
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
or a husband/wife therapist team
Judy Schaden and Sigmund Freude
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
Mountain momma
I would take WVU in a minute. Beautiful campus. Great Grad programs and a passionate fan base that shows up even for the Norfolk States of the world. The ACC could do much worse. Come to think of it they have——the Thug Us—Miami and FSU
The Big 12 (apparently) lives!
Last night, the Pac-12 — which wanted Oklahoma, Okie State, Texas Tech and Texas — threw up its hands and said no expansion. It apparently was tired of negotiating with UT over the Longhorn Network.
So the Big 12’s nine members are back together, although Oklahoma has apparently won some concessions from UT over revenue and expansion. Brigham Young reportedly will become member #10, finally gaining BCS status, and there’s a good chance the conference will take in some — or possibly even all — of the six current Big East football members (would Texas Christian be left out in the cold again?), bringing it up to 16.
If it gets to this point and you’re Rutgers and Connecticut, you have a quandary: Do you join this suddenly much stronger “conference of misfit toys,” where you could play Texas, Oklahoma and Brigham Young in football, or do you still pursue ACC membership for greater security, likely passing up a chance at big football bucks?
Oh, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Missouri still head to the SEC — which would leave an opening for TCU — but knowing that administration’s propensity for doing/saying the wrong thing (think of last year’s comical effort to win the Big Ten’s affection), don’t count on it. (The SEC, which only wants WVU as a fallback option, may intensify its efforts to woo Florida State, and if that happened, I would hope the ACC would try to corral South Florida — or, if that failed, Central Florida — as a substitute.)
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