Top Terp Tournament: #2 Joe Smith vs. #3 Greivis Vasquez
by Ben Broman on Sep 10, 2011 7:39 PM EDT
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PrintNo football for Maryland today, which makes it the perfect time to continue on with the Top Terp Tourney. Here we have the second match-up of the tournament's Final Four, and it's probably the most difficult choice of the tournament. I legitimately have no idea which way this vote will turn, and it's the closest thing we have to a toss-up in the entire thing.
The winner, of course, will get what appears to be Juan Dixon in the final. Let's get to it.
The #2 Seed: Joe Smith, PF/C, #32 1993-1995
As far as names go, you could hardly dream up anything more "normal" than Joe Smith. As far as players go, however, Smith was anything but.
It was Smith, after all, who garnered Maryland's only Naismith National Player of the Year Award, recognition that eluded Dixon, Albert King, and even Len Bias. He had probably the two best seasons of any Terrapin ever, and turned in some of the greatest single-game performances in Terp history as well.
The beginning of his career as unassuming as his name. Overlooked in his Virginia high school, he spurned childhood favorites Duke and UNC in favor of Maryland, which was by far the biggest school recruiting him. Unlike so many other stars, particularly from the Lefty era, who held a reputation before ever setting foot on campus, Smith was just about invisible.
And then the season started.
In his first game, the no-name Smith came out of nowhere to lead all scorers with 26 points against Georgetown, easily besting 2nd Team Preseason All-American Othella Harrington. After that, it was pretty obvious who Smith was: a star. He never slowed down after that 26 point performance, even against brutal ACC competition. He finished his freshman season with averages of 19.4 points and 10.4 rebounds per game - a double-double as a freshman - and 1st Team All-ACC honors.
His sophomore year was similarly spectacular. He was great from start to finish, and his only truly poor game - a six-point performance at home against Duke - was avenged with probably the best single-game performance in Maryland history: a 40-point, 18-rebound game against the Dukies in Cameron Indoor that included the game-winning shot. Greivis Vasquez would end up dropping 41 against VT years later, but for my money it'll take a lot more than that to topple the enormity of Smith's performance.
His sophomore year-end results: 20.8 points per game, 10.6 rebounds per game, and the Naismith Player of the Year award. Despite being a top 10 team all season long, Smith and the Terrapins couldn't better their postseason performance from the year before, again bowing out of the ACC Tournament after a round and falling in the Sweet Sixteen, losing to 8th-ranked UConn despite a predictable double-double from Joe. He left for the NBA after that, going #1 in the draft before bouncing around and becoming the ultimate NBA journeyman.
In terms of final, end-of-year, team results, I suppose Smith's Maryland career is a little lacking. But that's about all his career is lacking. His stats are immense, his talent obvious, and his impact on the program immeasurable - Maryland had begun the rebuilding process before Smith arrived, but it was his arrival that signaled its completion. The Terrapins went from 12-16 the year before his freshman season, and by the time he left they were top 10 regulars once again. (Oh, and there's that little NPOY thing, too.)
The #3 Seed: #21, Greivis Vasquez, G, 2006-2010
The really interesting thing to me about assessing Vasquez in this tourney is that he's the only one who hasn't really had a settling-in period. Smith, for example, left the program 17 years ago. Maryland has had a team without The General for, uh, one season. There's been no time for Vasquez's legacy to cement and for fans to form a consensus on where he stands in the big scheme of things, which can make things like this a little confusing.
But no matter: he's earned his #3 seed with his phenomenal stats, underrated impact on the program, delightful style of player, and, perhaps most of all, utterly lovable personality.
It's often been said that Greivis was Gary Williams on the court, mostly because of his fiery, expressive personality. (That's a misconception, actually, because I don't think Gary ever acted like that when he did play.) But GV loved his coach, for sure, and by the end of his career, GW loved his point guard. If Vasquez wasn't the Gary-on-speed, ultra-demonstrative, do-things-like-this kind of guy he was, there's no doubt in mind we don't remember him the same way.
Lest we forget the aforementioned phenomenal stats, underrated impact on the program, and delightful game, though: Vasquez is second only to Juan Dixon in career points scored in Maryland history, and if a certain pass hit a certain someone in the head, he had a chance at being tops. He's also second in career assists, trailing just Steve Blake. The only other player who's in the top five of both lists: John Lucas, who I hear was pretty good.
And don't forget, either, that Vasquez is the only player in ACC history to score 2,000 points, dish 750 assists, and grab 600 rebounds. Out of all the great players in ACC history who could seemingly do everything - Johnny Dawkins, Chris Paul, Phil Ford, Grant Hill, Michael Jordan - not a single one did that. (It isn't evidence of Vasquez's superiority over those many fantastic players, because he isn't "better" than them, but it is evidence of his quality.)
His style of play - up-and-down, a mile a minute, crazy passes, crazy shots - was begging for criticism (and often received it), it seemed, until mid-way through his junior year, at which point it became clear that everything had come together for GV. By his senior year, he was undeniably great, and his senior season was predictably fantastic. But what's probably most striking about Greivis was how comfortable he was in the big moment. He lived for the spotlight, and when the occasion arose - the still-unbelievable UNC game, the Illinois steal, Duke at home, and so many others - he stepped up.
I could write an essay on Vasquez, much like I could with Juan. But I think you get my drift.
So, in what will likely be a toss-up, who you got?
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Voting Vasquez
Just because I hate the bracket style opinion picked tourney that is voted on. Because #1 and #2 are clearly the best and second best.
Gotta go with Joe
Love GV, but Joe was the better player, college and pro.
Vasquez...
is my vote. But this is like picking a favorite child. I guess I’ll pick the one that stayed all 4 years. Wow!
Voted based on best TERP, not best player.
That’s Greivis 10 times out of 10.
by kckb8 on Sep 10, 2011 8:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
joe smith left early despite everyone pleading for him to stay
greivis stayed all 4 years and led us through a great year beating duke for a share of the acc regular season.
not even to mention how great of a terp he was with his antics and how he got better each year
Lets gooo Maryland
How many...
sweet sixteens does Grieves have?
One hundred times out of one hundred times, Joe Smith is the superior player, and superior Terp.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah He Got Better every year.
Freshman year: Sometimes clutch, yet erratic freshman role player.
Sophomore year: Erratic but fairly productive starting PG.
Junior year: Erratic asshole who was able to get his shit together for the UNC game.
Senior Year: FInally puts it all together and has an All ACC year.
Greivis looks great when you compare what he did to our awful years preceding his arrival. I think that will change when we start becoming a national power and the younger fans begin to understand what it’s like to be a consistent top 15 team instead of a team on bubble watch every March.
by KingFelix341 on Sep 10, 2011 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Amen...
…some of these people really revelled in being on the bubble, and watched every single moment to see if we would fall on the right side of the bubble. Me, it made me sick to my stomach.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
A big reason GV stayed all four years is because he was never a sure-1st pick of the draft.
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Sep 12, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I voted for Greivis but "mile a minute" does not describe his play. He is very unathletic...
so more like mile every 10-15 minutes.
You guys are nuts.
Joe Smith easy. Watch the video.
Fear the Turgle!
Joe is the man
Could outplay GV any day of the week. Joe is a true Terp Hero. GV wayyyy too inconsistent a player. Figured all the younger Terp fans would vote for GV. I saw all of Joe’s home games at Cole. No comparison.
Ummm...
National Freshman of the year?
National Player of the year?
What are you youngins smoking?
Joe Smith was a superior player in EVERY way. If Vazquez wins this, the entire tournament is a sham.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 9:35 PM EDT reply actions
If he wins
The people have spoken. Don’t get bitter.
The people?
More like the children not old enough to remember the founding fathers of Terp basketball have spoken.
I really wish Maryland would require all students to take classes on sound, scientific polling. This poll is nothing more than a poll of mostly under 25 Terps. That is all it is.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm one of those under 25 Terps
And I voted for Smith. Never got to see him play because I was only 3-4 years old, but I remember the days of consistently being ranked in the late 90s/early 00s. To all you who say that Greivis gave us 4 years while Joe only gave us 2, I say this: Joe gave us 2 sweet sixteen appearances, while Greivis gave us 0.
by KingFelix341 on Sep 10, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Certainly I am not implying...
that all “under 25’s” don’t know jack squat about Maryland basketball. Most, but not all.
There are a few reasonable out there and you are one.
1. Lefty invented Maryland basketball.
2. Gary took over a rebuilding project after the Len Bias tragedy and brought us back to respectability.
3. Joe Smith brought Maryland basketball back to greatness.
4. Juan Dixon gave us our national championship.
I know many will be offended that I didn’t give Gary a bigger spot there, but that’s my “short story” take of what the situation is and was.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say that most younger Terp fans don't know anything,
But they haven’t experienced being a Terp fan during a Final Four or Natty run. I was fortunate enough to have two alumni and Maryland employees for parents, so I went to tons of games when I was a kid and remember those days more fondly than most kids who probably paid the Terps no mind at that age. When we start winning and putting out top 10 teams again, people will get a real perspective of what it’s like to win big.
by KingFelix341 on Sep 10, 2011 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
"This poll is nothing more than a poll of mostly under 25 Terps. That is all it is."
Yes, but does it claim to be anything else?
by Ben Broman on Sep 10, 2011 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Intervention needed...
Intervention needed. No sane analysis would yield Grievis being better than Joe Smith. At anything related to Terp basketball that is.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
You're probably right but
you need to chill. Joe Smith was a much better player than Greivis, and I assume most people on this board know that. However, a 20 year-old, no matter how big of a terp fan they are, couldn’t have seen Joe Smith play and no amount of reading/highlights/hear say is gonna make them understand how important he was to the MD program in the way that someone who saw him play and how he changed the direction of the program can understand. Greivis will simply be more important to the younger crowd because they were here for his time at MD. Joe Smith was, and always will be a legend, his accolades speak for themselves. Greivis is fresh in everyones mind, brought the first ACC title we’ve had in 8 years, ACCPOY, and was a solid, very hardworking player. This is like comparing the legacy of Ruth to that of Jeter.
Right
which generally means that their opinion is nearsighted, and borderline worthless.
“I remember George W. Bush as president. Therefore, he was a better president than Abraham Lincoln.”
That’s essentially the argument here, and it is silly. It isn’t just age leading to this result, its ignorance.
This one shouldn’t even be close. People argue that Joe has the talent, but GV has the heart, and that means something. Do you know how many wins Joe willed us to? When he played with the flu and still came up with the game winning block? Taking “team leader” and “go-to” player responsibilities from day one?
I was going to respect your opinion
Until you disrespected mine.
“their opinion is nearsighted, and borderline worthless”
You proud of that? Its that same reasoning, claiming the oppositions ignorance, that caused truly equal voting rights not to be given to minorities and women until the 20th century. Your elitism is very much appreciated.
by testudo13 on Sep 12, 2011 12:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
LOL
LOL
And it’s people like us who took people away to concentration camps! Everyone! Rise up and vote for Vasquez! Or the bad old people will take our rights away!
LOL
Voting for Greivis in this poll disrespects sound judgment, and all the greatness of Terps past. You insult our basketball program to even insinuate that GV is half the player Joe Smith was. Joe Smith was one hundred times the basketball player GV ever dreams of being.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 12, 2011 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Am I proud of your nearsighted and borderline worthless opinion?
I don’t understand why I’d be proud of such of thing—that makes no sense.
Next point—hyperbole much? Pointing out the logical and methodological flaws in someone’s argument about Vasquez = oppressive racism and misogyny? I didn’t say you shouldn’t have the right to vote in this poll (I definitely didn’t say you shouldn’t vote because you are a black woman, or something)—I’m saying your vote was a bad one, and arrived at due to a near-sighted and narrow view of the situation.
Final point. You are right—I am an elitist. I’m young, I’m well-educated, I make way too much money, I wear nice clothes, drive nice cars, and party a bit too hard. None of that, however, had anything to do with my above post. I’d suggest you keep it on point next time.
by bshock on Sep 12, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, relax
I never said Greivis was better than Joe Smith, but nice work of falsifying it into some bogus deductive argument.
Greivis arrived at a time when MD basketball had been fairly mediocre for some time and gave us 2 good years, one ACC title, but never got us past the second round of the NCAAs. Joe Smith arrived at a time when MD basketball was at likely its lowest point in its history, and become POY and took us to the Sweet Sixteen, essentially reviving the program.
There is no arguing Greivis is better than Joe Smith, cause it is not true. The current students love Greivis, saw him pull off some incredible games and, admittedly, saw him through some tough stretches during his fresh/soph campagins. This poll will not change the fact that Joe Smith, in terms of pure talent, is probably the greatest terp of the Gary era. All it means is that most readers here were probably not old enough to appreciate the legacy of Joe Smith.
If you read my post, you'll see that
while it was in response to your post, it doesn’t accuse you of having that viewpoint. I wasn’t even disagreeing with what you said.
You generally pointed out the (correct) reason for GV’s win—popularity with young people that don’t remember Joe Smith. I 100% agree with you—that is why GV won this matchup.
I also think that is a pretty crappy reason, and explained why (I admit, the president example is a bit of an argument-through-the-extreme, which is a low form of argument). But the point stands—voting for someone because you can’t, don’t, or refuse to see the big picture is pretty worthless.
Also, what’s with the “dude, relax” and “chill man” posts that seem to pop up all the time on here? I mean, there’s nothing that even suggests I was flying off the handle or something. It is like every college student’s go-to comeback when they want to avoid defending their original statements.
Haha, I wasn't trying to avoid defending my argument
It is a simple and obvious argument. People just seem to be getting a little too hostile over an online poll of a blog featuring >60% college students. You think if this was a sample of journalists over at the Baltimore Sun/Washington Post, Greivis would be getting 30% of the vote? Probably not. I can understand wanting to impress the importance of Joe Smith’s legacy upon the readers here who grew up either a non-Maryland fan prior to college or were too young to see Smith in person or remember, but there is no need to attack someone over there opinion on a website. Especially a fellow turtler. Hence, the “chill” remarks.
That's my point
How did I “attack” anyone. I criticized someone’s position, and the logic they used to reach that position. I never said “so and so is a dumbass” or anything like that.
For the life of me, I can’t figure out how that means I need to “chill.”
Nah, I thought you were trying to morph what I said into
the president argument. You were fine, people were just starting to get a little hostile. Looks like Joe is starting to build a comfortable lead though
i think an obvious flaw in this type of comparison is a lot you are too young ( not a bad thing, to be too young, trust me) to have actually watched joe smith to be able to make a fair comparison. like it’s hard for many to compare a tom mcmillen to someone more contemporary. joe was great..hey he was national player of the year, first pick in the draft. that’s pretty pretty good my friend. greivis was a great player. a guy who could take over a game as a guard can do more easily than a big man unless the big man has a good guard to get him the ball. but big men are dependent on others where a guard can just do it himself. i can’t remember anyone at md play with as much passion and joy as gv. but joe was player of the year, not just the best player on his team or conference.
U have got to be kidding me?
Vasquez over Smith WTF!………….i think some people have short term memory because Smith is heads over heels a better player then vasquez hands down
Notice the title..."Top Terp Tournament"
I think Greivis is the better Terp.
Certainly not the greater talent, which is how many of you are interpreting it. But he was far and away the better Terp.
4 years we loved him, hated him, laughed with him, and cried with him. Joe only gave us 2 years.
We need Testudo Times...
…intervention. There is no way a bunch of teenagers who never even saw Joe Smith play can decide that Vazquez is better than Joe Freaking Smith. There has got to be some kind of intervention here.
Was Grieves a Consensus All American?
Did he receive National Player of the Year Honors?
Did he get drafted first pick in the NBA draft?
My god this is tragic.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 10:05 PM EDT reply actions
hey im a teenager
and I voted for smith
by Seat pleasant on Sep 10, 2011 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
god bless you.
I think this tournament should have had about 5 more years before it was done to let the love of vasquez become a little more realistic. And every young terp fan should take a class on Joe Smith.
by nmcvicker03 on Sep 10, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Very good Seat pleasant...
And I agree with nmcvicker03.
Some give Gary Williams credit for bringing Maryland basketball back. I give Joe Smith credit. He saved Maryland basketball.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Along with Walt Williams
Watching Joe in his prime was a special time in Terp BBall history. A whole notch higher than GV.
by Snappin Terp on Sep 11, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but this is very similar to Walt vs. Dixon
Grievis is obviously Walt, a guy that basically put the team on his back while he was here, and had a major impact on Gary. Walt was here when Gary was just starting and Greivis gave Gary his best years before he retired.
So there’s a special place in our terrapin hearts for those two guys because of what they meant to Gary and what they did for the program.
But in the end really, they can’t compare to Juan or Smith because of just how great those two were.
Joe Smith
I love GV, but those who remember Joe, he really had it all. Just didn’t pan out in the nba and thats what hurts him. I’ll never forget that Duke game. the only one that tops joe smith is dixon because he brought us the championship and put it on his shoulders.
One other thing...
cherokee parks lol, i hate that b#stard. He represents my hatred for duke. Him and paulus.
Not even close!
Joe Smith hands down!!! Please , its not even an issue if you know one damn thing about great college players. And if your too young, sorry bout your loss.
Smith might have been the better player
But Vasquez exemplified everything it means to be a Terp.
by Maryland Pride on Sep 10, 2011 10:44 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
and smith didn't?
just because Vasquez stayed four years in college dosent make him a better terp. If vasquez won player of the year his sophomore year i think he would of gone to the NBA after that too. Remember he was think about leaving after his junior yr and if he got a first round grade then he would of left.
by Seat pleasant on Sep 10, 2011 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
4 years is a special number
Joe Smith made a choice between the NBA and Maryland, and he chose the NBA. No doubt Smith was the better player, but GV stayed four years. And that means something.
by Maryland Pride on Sep 10, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
If 4 years is the standard...
then heck, I got 500 Terps I’d like to nominate.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn't 500 vs. Joe
This is Vasquez vs. Joe.
by Maryland Pride on Sep 10, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
And Vazquez...
was a good player.
Joe Smith was on the NATIONAL NEWS every game.
Joe Smith was one hundred times the player Vaszuez.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
GV only stayed his senior year
because he was told that he would probably not be a first round draft pick. Joe was drafted #1. UMMMMM let’s do the math here. Joe will pass up millions vs. GV choosing to stay because 2nd round doesn’t gaurantee a contract. Well that surely makes him a better Terp.
GV loved MD more than Joe
Both were really important players for different reasons and at different times in the program, which is why this is a great 2/3 matchup.
What puts GV over the top is he made me feel like he was doing it not just for himself but for all the fans. Joe was fantastic to watch and a more talented player, but in the end he decided to play for himself. There is nothing wrong with that choice when you go that high in the draft, but he had to give something up, that being the most loved player.
Staying 4 years means something if you can leave because you give up something for yourself for others. Frankly, GV could not have left his junior year, so its a little unfair to compare them that way.
Joe did not "play for himself"
and it’s only YOUR opinion Greivis loved UMD more than Joe.
Does that mean students who stay 10 years to complete their bachelor’s at MD love the school more than 4 year degree students? No, the 4 year students went out to GET A JOB, which is precisely what Joe Smith did. Those of us that were here when Joe was at UMD know how much he loved, and still loves the Terps. Joe burst on the scene at a time when Gary really wanted to get momentum going for the program. With Joe and the guys, it was mission accomplished.
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 12, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
All I am saying
is GV makes me feel a certain way about MD that Joe does not. I was out of college when Joe arrived (I got engaged during Midnight Madness that year) and it was really exciting to watch him. I did not know him personally, but appreciate what he did and how important he was.
I did come to know GV personally and I suppose that creates a bias. I really felt he loved MD and GW and gave more of himself to MD than Joe. Was Joe a better BB player? Absolutely. A better Terp? I am not sure, which is why this was a great 2/3 matchup.
I can see your point
as you got to know a little bit more about Greivis. I have no doubt whether GV loves UMD – he clearly does.
As far as a better Terp, “better” Terp? i see a lot of posters writing this. However, if you look again at the header of the poll, it asks, “Who was better?” It should not be a popularity contest, because I enjoyed Greivis’ love for our program and school, but rather who contributed most by being better. I’d still have to give the nod to Joe.
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 12, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough
But based upon that standard, is Juan the best Terp under GW? He might be top 10, but as a pure basketball talent, there would be a lot of guys ahead of him.
Juan and Greivis embody something beyond their basketball skills that immortalize them to many fans. Joe will probably go down as the most successful NBA player to come out of MD under GW, which is an incredible accomplishment. Comparing GV and Joe is a little apple and oranges; they do different things for different people.
Well again, "who was better?"
I watched all the players through the years. If it is Joe versus Juan, I will go through the various statistics, look at the teams they played on, evaluate the intangibles as part of the “better” standard, and see where things fall out. I actually do not know who’d I’d pick at this moment, but will put some thought into it shortly.
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 12, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
THIS IS A JOKE...
anyone voting for GV over Joe is on meds. The argument that GV stayed for 4 years is beyond ridiculous. It just reinforces that Joe was the better player. What does it mean to you who voted for GV to be the ‘better Terp’??? Just because a guy was not good enough to be the NUMBER 1 OVERALLL PICK IN THE DRAFT and came back for his last two years of college makes him more loyal to the Terps. PLEASE!!!!!
I'd completely respect a valid case made for Joe Smith...
but it’s clear with your comment that you’re one who was just not a big fan of Vasquez. Fine. But “your shit’s weak”(Grandma’s Boy). In case you didn’t know, Greivis Vasquez is the only player in ACC history to put up 2,000 points, 700 assists, and 600 rebounds. That is just a mind-boggling stat. Considering the talent(or lack thereof) around him, he had a more valuable single-season than Joe did, leading his team to an ACC regular-season title and winning the Bob Cousy Award as the country’s best point guard… among other things. And again, this poll is for TOP TERP, not top player… if you factor in intangibles like Terp pride, heart, and his development as a leader, the choice becomes that much easier.
LOL
You actually think Greivis Vasquez can beat Joe Smith in a comparison of their accolades?
Um…
Consensus All American?
National Freshman of the year?
National PLAYER of the year?
1st Pick in the 1st round of the NBA draft?
When Grievis is playing in Europe next year, you will realize that he was just a decent College player. A ball hog on a team that lacked talent.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 10, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You've got to be kidding me.
Winning a share of the ACC in 2010 was great and all, but Greivis played in a pathetically weak ACC. That team wouldn’t even have sniffed that kind of ACC record during the mid-90s. Greivis had a more valuable season? Really? How far did we go? What was our final ranking? Was Greivis NPOY? Was he even an All-American? How can you honestly say that Joe Smith’s NPOY season was less valuable than Greivis’ season in 2010?
Now, I consider a Terp’s greatness based on three things: Productivity, winning, and impact on the program. Greivis had better volume stats because he stayed longer, but Smith’s per-game stats were at least on par with GV’s. It’s hard to compare their stats because one is a forward and the other a guard. I’ll give the edge to Greivis just because of his volume stats. Winning is a no-brainer. Smith was part of highly ranked teams and made it to the second weekend of the tourney twice. Never happened for GV. Edge, Smith. Impact is also a no-brainer. I know we all just loved Greivis’ antics, but Joe Smith brought us more national attention being a Naismith winner and put us back into elite status as a basketball program. Greivis was gifted the Bob Cousy award and in his “greatest season ever” we were barely in the top 25 at the end of the year. Hardly a comparison. Edge, Smith. Better “Top Terp” goes to Smith in my opinion.
by KingFelix341 on Sep 11, 2011 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I am a GV fan, however
that fact that GV put up 2000, 700 and 600 does not trump a Nat’l freshman of the year & Nat’l Player of the year. If you put GV’s best two years against that it’s no comparison. The fact that he stayed two extra years carries no weight.
Well at least Joe Smith
is #1 at Maryland in most common name.
by Maryland Pride on Sep 10, 2011 11:01 PM EDT reply actions
It isn't like Vasquez had four tremendous years here compared to Joe's two.
Greivis had a solid freshman year and then became nothing but a headache for most of his next two years. When I think of Greivis Vasquez, I think of one great year. The rest is a couple of great performances (UNC) mixed with quite a few awful ones.
GV gets no credit for staying four years.
He tested the waters in the NBA after his junior year but no NBA team wanted him. Joe went number one. That is a no brainer. Easy vote Joe Smith.
Well, he got a 2nd round grade from a lot of scouts
After his junior year, and basically everyone does what GV did now if they have any hopes of playing in the NBA. You test the waters so you know what the NBA wants you to work on.
And just because Joe Smith went #1 in the NBA draft doesn’t make him a better Maryland basketball player.
Who knows, maybe Greivis will have a better NBA career then Joe.
You're right,
But the fact that Joe was good enough to be the top pick and left shouldn’t be held against him either. Who cares if Joe was only there 2 years? In both years, Smith’s team made the sweet sixteen while Greivis never did. IMO both of Smith’s years were better than Greivis’ best year both statistically and in terms of team success, so who gives a shit if he left early?
by KingFelix341 on Sep 11, 2011 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions
GV might be my favorite player but Joe Smith is the reason I started watching Maryland basketball when I was 9. He is the reason I am as obsessed as I am to this day. I randomly met him at Tysons Kid’s Foot Locker when I was 13 and it was one of the best days of my life. I’ve still got his autograph in my dresser and it’ll probably never move. I’ve washed my hands since then but I wasn’t happy about it.
I remember writing Joe Smith a letter
When I was in 5th grade, that basically repeated “Please Joe, Don’t go Pro.” I thought it was catchy.
I’m hands down in the Joe camp here. I would probably vote for Joe over Dixon, although the 4 years PLUS 2 finals fours PLUS national championship might convince me otherwise.
Between GV and Joe? Easy call. More team success? Joe (in half the time, mind you). Both had a share of the regular season ACC title. Joe had two Sweet 16s, to GVs zero (and Joe started that 11 NCAA tourney streak). Joe had more individual honors. He didn’t have 2 or 3 years of half frustrating/half brilliant play before putting it all together.
I really can’t see how GV wins. The only thing he has is 4 years instead of 2. And that just can’t be anyone’s deciding factor. Maybe to break a tie, but not in a clearcut case.
Disagree
The fact that it’s that one sided is sad. I remember sitting in Comcast for two years straight watching GV single-handedly will us to victories, namely over Duke to win a share of the ACC title, and his triple-double to beat a much more talented UNC squad. His skill may not have matched that of Joe Smith, but his heart, his attitude, and his pride were championship material. He will get my vote here and against anyone else in this tournament.
Lets gooo Maryland
Entertainment value... Vasquez
but as much as I consider myself to be an entertainment value man, I can’t go against one of the NBA’s finest journeyman in Joe Smith. LOL, seriously though.
Grievis NBA career...
will never reach the status Joe has achieved in his NBA career. How many people think 16 years from now Vasquez will still be in the NBA? Not many. In fact, I doubt he’ll still be in the NBA two years from now.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 11, 2011 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Timing
The only reason VG is ahead of Smith is because he just played for us. Dave Neal would probably beat DJ Strawberry because he just play a couple years ago.
It’s the way of the world.
I voted GV and I'm old enough to have watched all of Smith's career
First, it’s not about who’s the better NBA player b/c then Massenburg is better than Juan so stop that talk.
I know it is insane that Joe was National POY and had more success in his two years but I’ve been watching Terp b-ball since Len Bias and I’ve never seen such a player carry the team since Len. I know GV was erratic early on but he barely had any talent while Smith had two other Terps that are in this tournament (Rhodes and Booth).
If you gave GV an equal amount of talent he would have led them to greater team accomplishments and likely been POY too.
by Ttown Funkster on Sep 11, 2011 10:58 AM EDT reply actions
So you are
knocking Joe because he played w/better players and at the same time making a hypothetical argument for GV that he could have been as good in the same situation. Well, this isn’t a question of if. It’s a question of what did indeed take place. The fact is that in his time at College Park, Joe was never erratic and never had a bad year.
if Vasquez played on a team with more talent
he wouldn’t even be the first option
by Seat pleasant on Sep 11, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
want to thank
all the people voting for GV…I always wondered who are the nut sacks who watch Jersey Shore , and now I know……That fact that this is close does really make the whole tournament a joke… JOE was National Player of the year. Vasquez would not have been a starter on some of MD’s teams of the past ( no way he starts on the national champioinship team, probably comes off the bench AFTER Nicholas who was a better long range shooter)..
People
This is ridiculous. It’s not even worth making an argument on both sides. Just go find as many computers as you can (mine maxed out with voting on 4 different browsers) and vote for Joe Smith to avoid this travesty.
What makes a "Better Terp" is open to interpretation - Thats the whole point!
Joe Smith has a lot going for him, so does Vasquez.
Surely we can debate the merits and make our own choices without either bashing either of these two great players who we were so lucky to have and hopefully without bashing our own fans as well.
They both have great accolades. Joe Smith’s stats are almost certainly better than Vasquez’s Junior and Senior year and he was national player of the year. Vasquez’s were not far behind and he was also ACC player of the year which is no minor award. If I looked at stats alone, I would have voted for Joe Smith, but for me, emotionally and through leadership Vasquez took this team and the excitement about this team to another level that we were all so desperate for and gave us some stunning moments along the way. Just because that view is important to me, by all means, vote based on the qualities that you find most important – It’s a POLL after all in which people are free to express their opinions!
A under 26 Terp Fan
I had the privledge to watch both players play but of course I saw all 4 years of Vasquez almost in person as oppose to watching Joe Smith as an 8yr old kid. All you oldhead Terps fans cant fault us for voting for GV and possibly winning the bracket vote becuase its more of us online using this thing called a computer.
When Ben puts up a the ALL-Terp bracket, invite some of your 30+ friends online to have a more realistic vote. It is what it is.
I think Vasquez made more players (Milbourne, Neal, Hayes, Gist, Osby) better around him than Smith did. Smith was a BEAST but Vasquez contributed more to the whole Gary scheme.
Actually...
Older Terp fans have been on the computer longer than most of you younger Terp fans have been alive. I first used a computer in 1985.
Older Terp fans work for a living, and support families. They think politics is important, and watch the news. They do other things besides coming to basketball websites (I’m an exception, as are some others here). But I assure you, they love the Terps as much (if not more than) as younger Terp fans. We have paid our dues. We lived through the Len Bias tragedy. We know more about Terp basketball than you give us credit for. In fact, I’ll state it right out. We know more about Terp basketball than you do. Period.
If Vasquez beats out Joe Smith, it only points out the ignorance of younger Terp fans.
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 11, 2011 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
My Favorite Joe Smith Fact....
Joe Smith averaged 20.2 points and 10.7 rebounds for his career. He is the only ACC player to average 20 & 10 for a career since Billy Cunningham, who finished in ’65. (Read that sentence again, preferably before you vote.)
by JerryLefty on Sep 11, 2011 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
A lot of people here are casually forgetting the fact GV cost us almost as many games as he won us during his 1st 2 yrs
The greatness of Vasquez was the fact that he stayed in school and really improved himself as a player. It was a credit to both him and Gary Williams. However, Greivis was not that good of a player his 1st 2 yrs- he definitely had talent, but he lacked an understanding of the game- he didnt understand the game enough to know when it was approprtiate to make the spectacular play, and more often than not he tried for the spectacular and failed at key points in games. I’ll never forget his bone-headed play and technical foul that cost us the BC game during I believe his soph yr
To vote GV over Joe Smith simply can not be explained by the fact that GV stayed 4 yrs- he would have bolted after 2 as well if he had been the natl player of the yr. Joe Smith put MD back on the national scene, and went to 2 more sweet 16’s than GV did, aside from his Natl POY awards
greivis made 363 profiles and voted for himself on every one?
or there are some seriously confused fans
this is laughable...
Joe Smith by a country mile…not even close.
An unbiased opinion?
I watched them both play and thoroughly like each one. My posted comments demonstrate how much I appreciate Greivis’ play at UMD and admire his accomplishments. However, Joe Smith is clearly the Top Terp of the two and its by a wide margin.
everybody needs to chill
no need to hate on greivis or people who prefer him over joe. these are both great terps and thats the point, they were both awesome. just let the voting decide which goes on in this tournament and be done with it
Lets gooo Maryland
I think our votes should be weighted...
Take the number of years you have been going to and watching Terp basketball.
1. If you have been watching Terp basketball for less than 20 years, you get one vote. Period.
2. For every year above 20 years, add one point to your voting weight.
Example:
I’ve been watching and goint to Maryland basketball games since 1973. That’s 38 years. That means I get 1 vote for 20 years. And 1.8 votes for the additional 18 years.
So, my vote should count for 2.8 votes.
A 25 year old who started watchin at age 10 should get 1 vote.
Now let’s do a poll! LOL
Maryland basketball has been a sleeping Giant. The Giant is waking up.
by CharlesDriesell on Sep 11, 2011 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe is ahead!
at least for now …… sanity may pervail.
when
Joe Smith won POY the second best player in the ACC was Tim Duncan, yeah that Duncan….WHEN GV was Acc POY the second best player was Scheyer….that IS how GOOD JOE WAS!!!!
Finally
More level heads prevailing – and btw, I absolutely love what Greivis brought to UMD and the contribution he’s made. But any who were at the #1 upset of UNC in ‘95 know what I’m talking about. Joe began propelling the program back up.
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 12, 2011 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Recency vs. Primacy
Wow, it’s the recency effect vs. the primacy effect! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_position_effect
The best match-up of the tourney.
Looks like Joe is gonna pull this out!!!
And people who think that the "Joe Smith voters" are just old and are voting for their
contemporaries, need to look no further than the Juan vs. Walt match-up. Juan is blowing him away, which proves that “old heads” will vote for younger players, when achievements warrant it.
joe would have had the lead in this match much earlier if you were to phone eveyone but older people type very slowly and usually forget halfway thru what they were typing about. i started this message 2 days ago.
THAT. funny
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
by bball purist on Sep 13, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't criticize people for their choices based on your own criteria
Nobody is at fault for picking one person over the other. Calling other fans ignorant who just happened to like greivis more or grew up with greivis and were to young to see smith play is just ridiculous.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and just becuase you believe either player was a better “TERP” doesnt make it so. The key word is “TERP”. Everyone has a different definition of the words top terp. For some it’s accolades, others it’s heart, soul, and love for the program, and for some it’s what they meant to the program. All of these could be correct. Don’t criticize people for their choices based on your own criteria. I picked Grievis based on my criteria, but if you believed accolades were more important then you were right to pick Joe.
Don’t get me wrong, state your case for who you believe is better, but keep it friendly if they don’t submit to your reasoning. They aren’t wrong, they just have a different opinion.
you
Probably think Justin Bieber is better than The Boss…. Ok to disagree between the true greats ( Walt, Juan, and Joe), but GV has no place in this discussion. If he is one of the 2 best player’s we have had in 20 plus years than Md is no longer worthy of being called a bball school.
by valleyterp on Sep 13, 2011 6:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
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