"exceedingly average"
by FlaTerp on Aug 8, 2011 10:49 AM EDT
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PrintBen, I noticed in your Spence blog post that your early positive outlook on Edsall's recruiting so far has dampened a bit. I think that if we don't get one of the three 5-stars on the radar (which, just based on historical and general trends, seems like something we shouldn't depend on, at the very least), then this will be considerably less than an "average" class, at least from a rankings perspective. It will be one of the bottom 3 in the ACC.
To be realistic, you'd have to put us behind Penn State and UF on the list of most likely schools to land Spence; behind UF and Auburn and Miami with Diggs; and behind FSU, Alabama and others with Goldman, who may not even put us on his short list. That's just being realistic. If we pull off a shocker and land one of those guys (hey, Indiana just took a QB away from Alabama's grips, so anything's possible) then I'll happily be wrong about all this.
I'm going to go back to Edsall's introductory press conference and see what he said about upgrading his recruiting, because I don't believe this class is shaping up to be any more talented than the typical UConn class he put together. I think it might be helpful to cast this recruiting class in a more realistic light, because it's something that I (and maybe others?) view as a problem and a slippery slope in the wrong direction. We keep on recycling this rose-colored view of recruiting and a lot of people respond to any concerns by saying "just trust edsall" or "just let him do his job" or "wait to see what happens on the field."
With poorly-ranked classes at UConn, Edsall played 7 Big East seasons and to his credit he energized an upstart BCS conference program and won two conference titles, albeit in a questionable conference that many believe shouldn't get an automatic BCS berth. I would not, as some do, say he did an amazing or incredible job. In a weaker conference, he never lost less than 4 total games in a season (and only once it was 4 losses). His overall record in those 7 seasons was 50-37, and 22-26 in Big East play. His overall record at UConn was 74-70.
Now I would say he's recruiting very similar talent to Maryland and adhering to the same exact recruiting philosophy in which he lays little regard to the rankings and recruits off-the-radar prospects who he believes he can mold into players who will buy into the system and run through a wall for him.
I would also say that if he could get us the same success he had at UConn with that level of talent -- an average season of 8-5 or so and a realistic chance at a conference title once every 3 years or so when the conference has enough parity that a 2- or 3-loss team can win it -- we'd probably be satisfied, but not elated, with the state of Maryland football.
The problem is, Maryland is not UConn, and the ACC is not the Big East. We have FSU (top-5 in both real polls and recruiting rankings) in our division and play them every year. We have Clemson in the division and VT in the conference, and both would have won the Big East last year.
If Edsall matches or exceeds Fridge's 9-4 record last year, he'll be hailed as a success, but it's important to remember he'll be playing with the recruits of the prior administration, and those recruiting classes were ranked much better (in the 20s and 30s, whereas this class isn't in the top-50) than the current class we're bringing in. Success this year means Edsall can coach, which I believe he can. It has nothing to do with how well he recruits.
I think that over five years, we're in danger of dropping from a mid-tier ACC team (in both talent and results over the past several years, it's fair to say that's what we are mid-tier right now) ... to a lower-tier team.
Wake Forest is a good example. Like Edsall, Grobe recruits guys he likes but nobody's heard of. He works on them for five years, and then when he hit the mark with one good sleeper class, Wake had a good 2-year run, then disappeared. Grobe is a good coach -- everybody thinks that. But he doesn't have the talent to compete with the big boys on a year-by-year basis. I really hope that's not where we're headed.
You guys can call me negative or a hater or whatever, but it's not true. I wanted Friedgen out, I wanted Leach at first, but I liked the Edsall hire as soon as it happened and I think Edsall is a good guy and a good football coach. I'm worried about the direction of Maryland recruiting. It's the exact opposite of the direction basketball recruiting has turned. I'd like to see more concern out there about this, because I think we can do longterm damage to the program if we drain it of mid- to top-tier talent as each passing year goes by.
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Agreed. Very well written.
I would add, that this was/is the major fear some had with Edsall (myself included).
I think, that although the DC metro area is latent with talent, it is and will for foreseeable future be hard to recruit. It’s a catch 22. Until we start winning at a high level (I would add improving the gameday atmosphere to this as well) I don’t think we’ll be able to lure local high star recruits, who will have plenty of exposure to mediocrity. Proximity breeding apathy, as I believe Ben put it in another post is a great way to describe it.
PREACH and rec'd
Thank you! I completely agree.
Edsall did a terrific job recruiting guys at UConn and getting that program from terrible to respectable. BUT here at Maryland, we’re trying to go from that respectable/mediocre level to a contender. And Edsall’s current level of recruiting just won’t cut it. I’m ok with taking a few sleepers in recruiting but your entire class shouldn’t be built around hopes and whims.
As you said in your post, you need the horses to compete in a seemingly tougher ACC. Yes, there are going to be some 3 stars and even 4 star recruits that don’t pan out but I defy anyone to name one program in country that has had success at the highest levels that hasn’t landed a bunch of 3 and 4 star recruits. You need to get as much talent as you can and build depth across your team to have success in college football.
That being said, I’m going to let Edsall slide on this year’s class because of the new team and late start. But if this trend continues in next year’s class, we’re going to have issues.
clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose!
smoke'em if ya got'em!
by Daniel Hamilton on Aug 8, 2011 11:41 AM EDT reply actions
Agree completley
I will hold off recruiting judgements for next years class when he has had an even start on 2013 juniors
by terpsfinish on Aug 8, 2011 12:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
im sorry but everyone's got their basketball blinders on again
how can you say its the “exact opposite direction that basketball recruiting has turned”- if you look at it in terms of recruits we have signed and recruits we are pursuing, basketball and football recruiting are going the same direction. So for football, we have a couple 4 stars, a bunch of sleeper 3 stars and then a handful of unranked. OK, thats definitely not an overpowering recruiting class by any means but then were hot on the trail of Spence, Diggs and Goldman- all of whom are program changing talent. Then we have basketball, and so far we’ve signed Seth Allen who is an unranked sleeper. Then of course as everyone knows were very much in the running for Cleare, the Harrisons and Mcgary- again all of whom are program changing talent. Im not belittling either of the coaches, I think they’ve both done a solid job so far but someone tell me how, as we stand right now, that recruiting for football and basketball are heading in “complete opposite directions.”
the difference, in my opinion ...
… is that in basketball, as a recruiting philosophy, we’re going after the best players in the country. We’re out there trying to out-recruit everyone in our conference and everywhere else, period. If we miss all our targets and end up with 5 Seth Allens, that’s a big problem because of all the resources and time we’ve poured into top-tier kids. But that’s a problem that hasn’t come to life yet because we’re out there on the front lines trying really hard to change things.
In football, our philosophy is not to outrecruit our rivals but instead to get unheralded kids who have certain character attributes that Edsall appreciates. It’s an underdog philosophy. It’s exactly what UConn was. Nobody expected anything of them because there’s not a lot of talent there, and then they snuck up on you and went 8-5. But when UConn made the big time and played in the BCS last year, Oklahoma beat em by 28. That’s talent winning out, which almost always happens in the end.
Yes, there’s some 5-stars we’re targeting, but other than that, the targets seem to be sleeper kids who will appreciate the offer (since they don’t have over major offers) and buy into Edsall and his tough-nosed ways. We don’t need the one 5-star nearly as badly as we need 10 solid 3-star and 4-star players. Telling Dematha we don’t any longer want their best LB because we want a “certain kind of kid,” well that’s a big problem in my world. Really? We’re going to pull a standing offer for a sure-fire D-1 LB who plays 5 minutes down the road at a program we need to have a good relationship with? You go get that kid if you can. Other kids like him, too. Period. Last week, Lebbie committed to WV (where he’ll join half the best recruits from baltimore) and we’ll be seeing them all up close when the more-talented Mountaineers are road favorites coming to Byrd this year and in 2013.
I'd say that the big differences between the two are A) the shape we're in with big targets, and B) the size of the classes
For the first, trailing traditional powers for Goldman and Diggs, plus having at best an average chance with Spence, isn’t quite the same as being way in the lead for Cleare and in McGary’s and Macon’s top tier, plus having pretty decent chances Amile Jefferson and Robert Carter. I’d say that, as far as high-level talent goes, we’re undoubtedly in better shape in basketball than football.
But more importantly: Turgeon is working with 6 spots, whereas Edsall’s working with 25. But Turgeon is in better shape with more high-level players than Edsall. Landing one five-star in basketball is a pretty huge deal, and would be like 20% of Turgeon’s class. Landing a five-star in football is a good start, but I don’t know if there’s any non-QB “program-changer” – besides, that’s like 5% of Edsall’s class. In other words, Turgeon is doing more with high-level guys in way less space.
very true
But like you said in another post its easier to sell Maryland basketball than it is to sell Maryland football. So I just have a hard time saying, as of now, Turgeon is light years ahead of Edsall recruiting wise, like some around here would like to think.
by churl77 on Aug 8, 2011 3:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think two of the biggest differences between the two coaches are what they are doing to manage expectations and create excitement amongst the fans
Because neither coach has actually landed that big name player yet, it’s pretty much a wash. BUT… Turgeon is (to me and probably many others on this board) creating a lot of excitement and high expectations for what is to come. I just don’t get that from Edsall. Now, if Turgeon whiffs on all of the big name recruits, it’ll be all that more disappointing. He has set my expectations higher.
I’ll let my basketball bias show through here. I’m excited about football season starting, but that excitement is very tempered. We start off 2-0… WOOHOO! I’m all in the rest of the season. 1-1… That’s respectable considering the opponents. I’ll continue to pay attention, but mostly from the comfort of my couch. 0-2… Sounds like a continuance of mediocrity.
I think that since I started following the recruiting this summer, it only helped to entrench what I expect going forward. Slavishly listening to media barons, such as Ben Broman, has given me a constant stream of positive news involving Maryland basketball. You keep reading good news, some of it is bound to come to fruition eventually, right? Even though I know this coming basketball season is going to be mediocre at best, because my hopes for the future are high, I’m more apt to keep my outlook positive. The recruiting on the football front hasn’t given me that hope. I know those recruits have no bearing on this season, but my perception of staff is being painted by what they’re doing in the offseason, fair or not. There’s just no hype or excitement being generated.
*Caveat: I wrote this post over about 45 minutes, continually being interrupted at work. So I apologize if it’s rambling and incoherent at times. And I’m too lazy to go back and edit my thoughts.
2nd Year is the Test
I think Turg and Edsall are in the same boat. Their recruiting success will depend on how they are viewed after their first year of coaching. If they show promise as coaches and get the best out of what they have to work with, recruits will take notice and the buzz will increase. If not, then they will have an uphill battle to improve on previous recruiting levels. Turg is in with many top players, but if this year’s team goes 7-22, most of those guys will disappear. Everyone needs to be patient and see how this sports year goes at College Park. Both could turn out to be coaching/recruiting gems or busts.
Maryland may not recruit program changing talent because the AD was afraid to hire a program changing coach
Simple as that. On two occasions the AD hired a guy that he apparently thought he could get along with. On both coaches the jury is out, however in basketball Gary had positioned the program so well that even the top 5 choices were as good or better than what most other programs could hope to get. Therefore a guy like Turgeon was something of a second-tier choice, even though he would appear to be a first-tier talent.
Solution-must have a top-flight AD. Maryland probably doesn’t have that, though KA is assuredly a step up from Debbie.
NCAA Recruiting Violations
Have been hot news lately, especially with Ohio St. and UNC. Maybet KA has told Randy to turn it down a notch and be extra careful. Butch Davis also took out his AD. Don’t make any promises you can’t keep.
The good ‘ol boy network doesn’t work as well as in the past. There is no reason we can’t attract some more 4 & 5 star players. We have to keep up with Duke, with them opening up a new football training facility! Ha!!
Can't say I disagree with anything you said
But I think the importance of this recruiting class is a bit overblown. What is waaaaay more important, at least in my view, is the results on the field for this upcoming year. I think that if Edsall pulls off a 9-4 or better season, recruiting should pick up. You have to remember Edsall came into this recruiting class late in the game, so he was already fighting an uphill battle.
IMHO, Edsall’s success (at least early in his tenure), is more dependent on him making some noise with this years team, and then parlaying that success into an above average ACC class the following year. This recruiting class is a secondary factor to that success.
My prediction
We are waiting for Randy Shannon to not have a buyout next year. He will be our DC and will also elevate our recruiting tremendously. I just can’t find a good find a good reason to settle for our current DC when you don’t have too. I think shannon wanted the job but it made no financial sense for either party. So we make our Dline coach DC for a year until Shannon is affordable.
god i hope your right
Having Shannon at DC would be a certified pants-tent
by churl77 on Aug 8, 2011 3:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
good vision Jeffro
cuz we can allocate some coin, but as we saw in some articles, Ath Dept cannot pay that kinda buyout for a DC. good call – let’s hope it’s true. Only thing I’d be concerned about is another school has HC opening at end of season and locks RS in until the year is up – when is it exactly? Early next year?
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
That would be amazing
I was more upset over not getting Shannon as DC than i was at Leach not becoming HC
by T Free on Aug 8, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
if we get 1 5 star
then i think everyone’s attitude changes instantly. hate to say it but….let the man work and judge him later
It's what I hear almost every post.
Maryland is not a “football school”. We should be happy with 9 wins in a season. The fan base is just not that strong. Maybe the staff at Maryland just can’t get 4 – 5 star recruits to come to Maryland for that reason. I believe I have read articles from everyone in “management” of this site saying “Maryland is not a football school”. Until a complete and total change of attitude comes from the University, fans and alumni. then it is my opinion that we will always get the 2 to 3 star player that hopefully can be taught up.
Well, we're not
Let’s not act like we are, or that that barrier doesn’t exist. That doesn’t mean that the right guy couldn’t get the fanbase psyched and recruit at a high level, but I have no doubt Edsall would be a better recruiter at South Carolina or Tennessee than he would be here. We can’t just ignore that aspect of it when evaluating his performance. It just means it takes a special kind of coach to transform the program over the long term.
Thought this might hit home.
I have heard all the arguments as to why Maryland isn’t a “football university”. Ravens, Redskins…local kids here want to go out of state…basketball basketball basketball, blah blah blah. I’ve seen Maryland listed as pre-season #1 college football team in America. I’ve watched the greatest comeback in college football history (yes i know it’s been outdone but, not in my eyes.) So, why can’t that happen again??? Maybe all i am asking is a little change in attitude. Just my opinion.
I get where you're coming from and appreciate it
I think it would take a HUGE sea change though in order for MD to reach that level of prominence that we would like. There are a handful of schools that can achieve excellence in both football and basketball. MD could someday reach that.
It could probably be the topic of an entirely new fanpost, but what would be 3-5 things that need to change in order to get MD football to the level of prominence of, let’s say, Auburn football (or insert any other school here from the South.) Heck, I’d be happy if MD football was on the level of MD basketball.
And as a side note… your avatar is WIN.
Yeah Florida was totally a football school
before Donovan took over – he got the fan base engaged by WINNING consistently. It can be done here too. If Fridge had been more consistent, he would have kept more casual UMD Football fans engaged year after year.
Die hards like most of us go anyway, but to keep the year in, year out interest, UMD cannot afford too many sub .500 or even .500 seasons
"A new era has dawned in Maryland Athletics..."
I'm not so sure Ben
He doesn’t seem to be a better recruiter at Maryland than he was at UConn, which was my whole point. At South Carolina or Tennessee, I wonder if he would still de-offer the Sam Lebbies of the region and stop recruiting the Dominic Bryans and stay away from the Charles Tappers, all in favor of sleeper kids who he feels like fit the mold he’s looking for because they’re hungry or feel unappreciated or whatever.
Maryland (the state, not the school) is LOADED this year. Forget South Carolina or Tennessee, Edsall’s got talent all around him right now better than what can be found in either of those two states. And I’m not talking about Diggs and Goldman, who would probably be out of reach for just about any coach Maryland had hired.
I’m talking about the 8 in-state 4-stars, of which we have landed 1 (Madaras), missed out on 4 (Darby, McManus, Wilkerson, Moore) and are not serious contenders for the other 3 (Jones, Watson, Brown).
I’m talking about the 14 total in-state 3-stars, 1 of whom we landed (Braglio), 9 of whom are committed elsewhere (Tapper, Gaia, Pyke, Coates, Banks, Riley, Jackson, Porchia, Lebbie). The other 4 3-stars? Ian Thomas is listing us … Dominic Bryan, in a Monday Rivals story, direct quote: “I’m not really getting that much attention from Maryland anymore because of the new staff.” … Roderick Chungong says his top two are VT and UVA …. Josh McPhearson has offers from WV and Cincy, but apparently isn’t being recruited by Maryland at all.
You have to wonder if Madaras and Braglio had not committed so early in Edsall’s tenure, would we still be recruiting them? Or would they not be that “certain kind of player” we seem to covet.
Football school or not, it appears we are simply not targeting the best players in our neighborhood for whatever reason. That’s below the minimum standard of acceptable recruiting at an ACC school that, unlike Wake Forest or Duke, is actually the state’s flagship university. We have to at least try for the top talent in the state.
I’d love to see that Dominic Bryan quote pulled out and put in your blog, Ben, because it’s a continuation of the Dematha deal that broke last week. This is, in my view, as much a part of the Edsall story as anything else.
I pretty much agree
Another way to say pretty much the same thing:
People often point to Edsall’s track record, while at UConn, of taking unheralded recruits, coaching them up, and contending for the Big East title.
That could lead to one of two results:
First: Because Maryland has a much higher ceiling than does UConn, Edsall is able to use the same approach, but “up it a level.” In other words, he gets better recruits than he did at Maryland, but still coaches them up and is able to contend for ACC titles.
Second: He uses an identical approach to the one he used at UConn, going after the same players, and building a program that is on par with his UConn teams. This team, due to the change in conferences, would be a mid-tier ACC team, breaking into the ACC title discussion once every 4 years or so.
Ben is definitely right—it is silly to think that we can, right now, recruit like a South Carolina or Tennessee. But by that same token, we shouldn’t have to recruit like a UConn, either.
but ...
UConn was in the Big East title discussion. That doesn’t mean they would’ve been in the ACC title picture. Maybe back when Wake Forest won it that year, or even maybe last year (but I doubt it). Since Jimbo Fisher came in, FSU is killing it in recruiting and so is Clemson. I don’t think you’ll see Wake making a run again anytime soon.
I know ...
but I think with UConn players in the new ACC, every 4 years even may be a reach.
Well
We were “in the discussion” last year. I think last year’s UConn team was on par with last year’s Maryland team, and would’ve been in the ACC title discussion.
Basically, I think UConn could have gone 5-3 in the ACC, and sometimes that is enough to be in the hunt.
agreed ...
…if the conference is down, the teams that are behind in recruiting/talent but are well-coached (Maryland, Wake, BC) can make a run at the title. The Fisher era at FSU appears on the surface to be a game-changer, though, and I’d be surprised if 3-loss ACC teams are going to be in the picture in our division anymore going forward. Clemson also has had a serious surge in talent since Dabo came in.
I just think the biggest building block is physical talent, not intangibles. We’re not Navy. It’s not a coincidence that the few 4-stars we’ve bagged in the past few years — Tate, Mackall, DJ Adams, Arnett, the WRs — are all expected to start and/or play big roles on the team this year. We don’t have many 4-stars, and almost all of them are in key roles. That’s not a coincidence. If Edsall wins this year, it’ll be with many of those 4-star guys at the center of things. He’s recruiting less of those guys than ever before here. That’s, for me, frightening when I look 3 years down the road and wonder what the roster is going to be like.
Oh you don't have to convince me
I 100% agree with all of these things.
My general point was that Edsall could (1) use the same formula, but capitalize on his superior position at Maryland to upgrade talent over his UConn teams, i.e., snag a lot of 3 stars instead of 2 stars**(which would be good); or (2) use not just the same formula, but go after the same exact players, and essentially produce UConn-replicas (which would be bad).
So far, the results have been more in line with #2—he hasn’t adjusted his approach to take advantage of Maryland’s relative advantages over UConn.
**I know stars don’t mean everything, it is just an easy way to describe my point.
Edsall started late
and came off the heels of a 2-10 season, not to mention we are basketball school. I wouldn’t expect recruiting gains for the next 3 seasons. Turge has the advantage of us being a rabid, foaming dog when it comes to basketball.
Also, you need talent in football but you can hide behind lesser talent with solid team play and good coaching.
Fridge couldn’t develop a QB, game plan offensively, and get his team prepared to save his job. I have faith Edsall can take a mediocre bunch of players and spit out more than a below average ACC season which is what the Fridge was doing.
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