You Tell Us: With ACC Player of the Year In Hand, Where Does Greivis Vasquez Rank?
by Ben Broman on Mar 9, 2010 4:48 PM EST
in Basketball
49 comments
It's official: Greivis Vasquez won the ACC Player of the Year award going away earlier today, making him the fifth Maryland player to ever receive the award (Juan Dixon, Joe Smith, Len Bias, Albert King) and the third for Gary Williams' 21 years at the program.
It's quite an achievement, and basically guarantees that a banner will be hanging in the rafters (not that it was in any doubt at this point). He's clearly been one of the nation's best players this year, and should go down as an all-time Maryland great.
Here's my question: on the list of players Gary Williams has coached, where does Vasquez rank?
Juan Dixon is #1 and will doubtfully ever be topped. But how high could Greivis go after that? Does he challenge Joe Smith, who won a national player of the year award? Probably not.
How about Walt Williams? The Wizard was an amazing player, and he was put - and succeeded in - a difficult situation. No one can compare to him for what he did for Maryland. But he never won ACC Player of the Year, and Greivis is a major reason that Gary Williams still has his job. Is that enough for Vaz to leapfrog him?
Or what about Keith Booth? Booth was a big part of the mid-90s revival and carried a team on his back. You could argue that Vasquez did the same, but he has the hardware to go with it. Steve Blake, however, has even more hardware. Does Vasquez top him?
To the point: there's a lot of career left to go, considering he could win the ACC tournament or make a deep NCAA run, but for the moment, let's assume that Maryland makes it to the ACC championship game, loses, and goes on to the Sweet 16 in the NCAAs. Vasquez is neither particularly better nor worse than you would expect. Where does he rank?
Personally, I put him behind Williams, at #4. It'll be interesting to see what some of you, particularly the older (thus, wiser) ones, have to say about it.
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No vote
I still need to see what he does in this tournament before I can decide.
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want them to bury me upside down, so that my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
Also important to note
That Vasquez is a Sporting-News 1st team All-American. That puts him above Blake. I think right now he’s in the 3-4 range. ACC Title or a deep tourney run could alter that.
disagree---have him at 1a behind juan
if we make the elite 8 i put him at number 1
he is already statistically the best to ever play at Maryland and perhaps in the ACC
National Championship trumps all. Stats are nice, but wins are what I want.
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want them to bury me upside down, so that my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
true but a natty also ins't an individual award is what i'm saying
it’s a team award—-so to credit that to juan is not 100 percent accurate
look i love juan, i love gv—-
but gv may have done more to get md in the winner’s circle is all i’m saying
I disagree. There were a ton of games (especially in the tournament) where Dixon put the team on his back and carried them. It’s easy to look at now and say “oh well now was better than then” because it is fresh in your mind. Vaz hasn’t played supremely tremendous in the tournament yet. Dixon KILLED in the tournament his senior year. If GV can match that type of performance…then maybe it is a discussion.
Juan Dixon was the best player to ever play at MD.
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want them to bury me upside down, so that my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
vaz was a world beater against Cal last year
and scored 20 against memphis
he’s played well just about every game he’s laced up—-but either way you just seem to fundamentally disagree so there is no point going tit for tat
all i’m suggesting is that it’s at least a discussion depending on how far we go in the tourny—-for me—-if we make the elite 8 i’m putting GV over Juan in terms of all time terps
Ok lets look at numbers (I used statsheet.com)
Dixon – 46.8 FG%
Vaz – 42.6 FG%
Dixon – 38.8 3pt%
Vaz – 33.3 pt%
Dixon 85FT%
Vaz 82.6FT%
Dixon 16.1 PPG
Vaz 15.9 PPG
Dixon – 4.2 RPG
Vaz – 4.8 RPG
Dixon 2.6 APG (Blake was the PG though, not Dixon)
Vaz 5.7 APG
Dixon 2.6 StPG
Vaz 1.4 StPG
I would say their offensive stats are very comparable. Greivis may end up with more points, but Dixon was more accurate. However, if we brought defense into the question Vaz is an average to good defender. Dixon was a great defender. That is a big reason I would say Juan was a better player than Greivis is.
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want them to bury me upside down, so that my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
well on the big three stats---gv clearly has the edge
almost a full rebound and 3 assists better per game with the same point production
you just included several superfluous facts such as 3pt percentage and ft percentage and steals to cloud the fact that gv fills the stat sheet up better
you can twist stats any way you want—-but on the big 3 gv has him
now of course—-that doesn’t mean gv is a better player
by tiimbitz4786 on Mar 10, 2010 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
He is a point guard, Dixon was a shooting guard. So comparing assists is like comparing rebounds for a center to a guard.
Superfluous facts? So being an accurate shooter is superfluous? Being able to hit free throws is superfluous in close games? Forcing turnovers is superfluous? I do not follow that logic.
They are equally comparable on offense. And Dixon was a far better defender than GV is. That does make Dixon a better player.
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want them to bury me upside down, so that my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
Grievis means more to this team than Dixon meant to his team.
by MurlandTerps on Mar 10, 2010 9:07 AM EST up reply actions
As far as what? Scoring?
That just means he takes more shots than Dixon did. Doesn’t mean he is a better player.
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want them to bury me upside down, so that my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
Why are people fighting over this? They’re both great players and Terps. Let’s just leave it at that.
by jhough813 on Mar 10, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think even that is too high
What about Joe Smith? Bias? Walt? Albert King?
Another thing to consider is that Dixon put MD over the top. He got them to not only their first national title, but their first final 4. And back to back Final 4’s.
Trust me, I love Greivis and I think he’ll be remembered as a top 5 player, but I really think it depends on the ACC tourney and the NCAA Tourney this year.
Yeah, I have him at 2.
No one can ever top Juan in any aspect of players that have ever put on a Maryland uniform.
But Greivis is close. He’s done more with less than anyone in Terp history. And 2000 700 600 ain’t bad either.
The Greivis Show on Earth
Breaking down the great players for coach Williams
Loyalty: Walt and Greivis
Money: Juan and Greivis
Scoring: Juan,Walt and Greivis
Assists: Blake and Greivis
Turning the program around: Joe Smith and Greivis
i am not sure juan deserves the number one spot over GV
just throwing it out there—-
the year after juan left (along with wilcox and lonny right?)—-the team went to the sweet 16 and lost on a buzzer beater to an msu team that went to the final four
so how valuable was juan to that team? he and two other great terps turned a top 15 team into the number 1 team
I think GV has single handedly turned a team that wouldn’t be in the top 60 without him into a team that is in the top 15
so i think there is an argumetn to be made that GV had a greater impact—-
I know I am gonna get killed for this...
but I think you have to throw Joe Smith into the #1 category. He averaged 19 and 11 as a freshman and 21 and 11 as a soph. I know he was only there for 2 years but I think he should earn a little extra credit for being the #1 draft pick. I think if Juan or GV could have been a top ten pick they would have left also. I am not discrediting Juan or GV, it is a close race but I would say Juan edges out GV based on hardware alone because they both have the skills.
yeah the problem is how do you judge it
Joe was probably the most talented terp in the gary williams era outside of franchise—-but he only was here for 1 year
I know ... it is impossible...
also sidenote: Joe’s numbers were better than Franchise plus smith had a better NBA career
smith had a longer nba career
but stevie was a top 10 player in the nba for a stretch there—-joe was never that good in the nba
by tiimbitz4786 on Mar 10, 2010 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
Joe played for two years
and he was drafted #One overall coming out of college. He was national player of the year as well. He also carried Maryland on his back to Gary’s first ever ACC regular season title. Walt Williams kept maryland afloat during the probation but Joe put UMD back on the map. Joe vs GV its Joe Smith hands down.
I agree that Juan is the greatest Terp ever
But I have seen Greivis do things on the court that I never saw Juan do. There is a reason why Greivis is the only player in ACC history to have 2,000 700 and 600 in his career. And there have been alot of great players who have come out of the ACC. I voted #3, but if he has a strong showing in the next two tournaments and we get far in both, I am willing to put him at #2.
We also have to realize what he has been working with as far as teammates while he was here. With Juan, he had Wilcox, Lonny and Blake who had to be covered so much because they could destroy you. When Juan was having a bad game, we could still win comfortably. When Greivis has a bad game, it is very hard for us to win.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
Is it just me
Or does anyone else think that if we go to the ACC championship or Elite 8 that Greivis is going to drop 50 in one of those games? I mean, he put up 41 against NC State and didn’t even play THAT well.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
Yeah this is hard to rank
Best season performance= Joe Smith
Best season combo of performance & results= Juan Dixon
Best season combo of performance & value to team= Greivis Vasquez
that sums it up pretty well
depending on what you value—-you will rank one of those 3 as the top player in my opinion
an argument can be made for any of them
ESPN's lack of coverage
I find it interesting that the MotherShip has NOTHING on either their homepage or even the College Basketball home page about Gary and Greivis. It’s on SI.com. And I guarantee you if Scheyer and coach K won it ESPN would dedicate an entire episode of Sport Center to it. But for Maryland? Nothing.
SVP needs to flex some muscle with Andy Katz and get the Terps some more love on the interwebs.
ESPN
is a Nike sponsored business and Nike gives big $$$ to ESPN so ESPN will promote Nike schools over UA schools until UA takes over and gives more $$$ to ESPN – imo.
Juan Dixon
Look, tiimbitz, I agree that GV should at least be in the discussion for #1, even more if we actually get past the sweet 16 to elite 8 or maybe final 4. Too tough to tell if that happens. But Juan Dixon was my hero and one of the best players I have seen play the game, coming out of nowhere from high school, and rarely had an off game. GV has been great this year all throughout once he got it going, but where was he in the 1st half against Duke? The Natty was definitely a team effort, and having Blake, Wilcox, Baxter, and others by his side is what won it for us. But Dixon made so many clutch shots, huge 3 against UCONN, huge shots against Kansas, huge shots against Indiana to turn the tide back in our favor. GV might be clutch too, but hitting big shots against a Duke team at home in the regular season doesn’t match up with huge games and shots against the likes of UCONN, Kansas, Indiana, Stanford, Kentucky in the NCAA tournament. Let’s have another vote after this years tourney. Granted GV doesn’t have the same supporting cast this year so we will have to look at it relatively, but Juan is the man at UMD
"Let’s have another vote after this years tourney."
That’s the plan. But I am intrigued to see what people think.
that was kind of meandering---
but are you seriously saying that b/c gv didn’t have a good first half against duke this year that it somehow means that juan is the better player?
also i specifically say he’s behind juan unless we get past hte sweet 16—-at which point i think his contribution surpasses juan just b/c of how much gv has to do for this team
juan was a clutch, clutch performer at MD—-and we don’t win a title without juan, and we all love juan—-try not to take it personally though, i’m just throwing out a topic for discussion—-i find it odd that in a post that’s sps to encourage discussion, the author decided to take number 1 off the table b/c as this conversation indicates, it’s all arguable
by tiimbitz4786 on Mar 10, 2010 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
wasnt saying because he had a bad 1st half against duke that that makes him worse
Just pointing out a time when we could have made a statement win and GV fell flat and did nothing until the game was out of reach. Not that one game means everything, but I think in a game like that if Juan had been playing, even if we still wound up losing he still would have had a good game and not disappeared.
AROUND THE HORN
Kevin Blackistone just gave his face time to GV and GW giving them props for everything all season. Thatta boy
I love Juan
and what he and his teammates did for Maryland. The answer to who is the best is very subjective. As far as pure basketball talent goes I think Juan is behind Walt and Joe. As far as a program saver goes, no question it’s Walt. Juan and GV to me are the two very special players. We have never had two players with more heart and desire. Those two absolutely love Maryland and Coach. I believe if Juan and GV played one on one it would be a fight to the death, NO quit in either! There is only ONE answer to who is the best basketball player to ever play at Maryland, #34!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Must Read!
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/terrapins-insider/2010/03/reactions_from_your_2009-10_ac.html#more
Plus WaPo has tons of other articles today. Alot of fun reads.
#2
with a chance to be #1 if he can make a long run in either the ACC or NCAA tourneys.
old soul?
imho – john lucas is the greatest terp ever. i have an older brother that force fed me as a kid, the kind of player lucas was. the stories are out there if you ask…twice (@ least) the player as gv & yes…i do dare say…5 times the (insert expletive here) on the court. gv deserves his props…but not top 5.
1. lucas
2. dixon
3. king
4. the wizard
5. smith
Not trying to nitpick but the question was greatest terp under Gary
Otherwise I agree with your list.
old souls can't read so good...
my bad jeffro78 & other posters. got thinkin’ & carried away. broke rule #1 for posting. gv def makes the top 5 under coach williams. dixon cannot be matched. i might put walt 2nd just because of what he sucked up for the program. great question.
Past Terps
Greivis is certainly one of the top 10 Terps, but there are some prominent names that have come before him.
#1. Len Bias – I’m sorry, but if you saw him play, you know his status as the best to don a Maryland uniform.
#2. Juan Dixon – One of the best players, but gets the second highest status because he brought home the NCAA championship.
#3. Len Elmore – One of the best players on one of the greatest teams in history, that played THE greatest ACC game of all time.
#4. John Lucas – Two time consensus All American and ACC athlete of the year, and like Elmore, was on one of the best teams in history.
#5. Walt Williams – Between Walt & Gary Williams, resurrected the MD basketball program. His numbers are ridiculous. More importantly, he played under the sanctions that did not allow him the exposure or post season play.
#6. Greivis Vasquez – Like I said, he’s up there. But I can’t put him above these guys.
Remember, the NCAA championship has had many changes, including the “at-large” process. Elmore and Lucas played on the team that literally changed the tourney. Walt resurrected the program. Juan won it all for us. Bias was perhaps one of the greatest college players ever.
I was going to write my own post
but this sums up my thoughts as well. Most of the guys that GV has passed in points did not have the benefit of the three point line.
Maryland has had two players drafted #1 overall in the NBA and numerous others that were drafted top 5 overall. GV isn’t even a lottery pick.
I love what GV has done for this program over his four years here and his senior year has been awesome experience. But to put him top 5 is belittling the basketball tradition that UMD all ready has.
I would be really interested to see the top 5 lists of those 40+ individuals who voted for “not top 5 in Gary’s tenure”. Gary Williams himself said Vasquez is a top 5 ALL-TIME Terp.
My list would probably be:
1. Greivis
2. Juan
3. Walt
4. Joe
5. Keith
I can see the rationale for re-ordering those five, but not having GV in among them??
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