Greivis Vasquez Approval Rating, Two ACC Games In
by Ben Broman on Jan 13, 2010 4:05 PM EST
in Basketball
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PrintThis popped up in my RSS reader from Turtle Soup, and I can't say I'm not surprised. Interesting take, to say the least, from Jeremy over at TS:
9-27 FG (33%), 4-12 3PT, 8-11 FTs, 7 assists, 6 turnovers, 4 rebs
That's Vasquez' line from tonight's game. It's an abomination. 27 shots? 12 threes [sic] point attempts? These numbers don't even illustrate how bad it was down the stretch. J Will is open at the low block with a guard on him. Greivis ignores him and drives to the baseline and throws up a prayer. Down two with 15 seconds left in OT. Screw the play Gary just drew up, I'm firing up a three with a hand in my face.
What does it matter if he kept us in the game down the stretch in regulation if he was going to kill us all game with his selfish play?
...
Is Greivis really indispensible? How many of his 18 missed shots could have been passed up for a better shot by a teammate? 30 points is worthless to me when it is achieved so selfishly.
Later, he posted this in a comment:
Greivis' line in MD's losses:
Cincy: 5-17 FG, 0-5 3PT, 4 assists, 3 turnovers
Wisc: 6-13 FG, 2-4 3PT, 2 assists, 5 turnovers
Nova: 3-9 FG, 1-4 3PT, 7 assists, 7 turnovers
W&M: 10-23 FG, 2-9 3PT, 6 assists, 4 turnovers
Wake: 9-27 FG, 4-12 3PT, 7 assists, 7 turnoversA quick summary: 26 assists against 26 turnovers. That is bloody awful.
33 of 89 from the field (37%). 9 threes against 34 attempts (that's an average 7 3PT attempts per game at a 26% clip).
GV supporters will say as Greivis goes, so go the Terps. I prefer this: Grievis gets selfish in big games and kills the Terps.
First off, I like the guys at Turtle Soup. It's a good blog and has been around for a really long time. This isn't meant to be a public criticism of this, but I need to argue against someone if I'm going to make this post. I've seen this argument used elsewhere, though this is the most eloquent - I simply disagree. To the guys at TS, please don't take it personal. Everyone has an opinion, and I recognize that.
So, respectfully, I cannot wrap my head around this mindset.
Of course Greivis' line is bad when Maryland loses: he's the best player on the team. When the best player doesn't play well, the team loses. What's the point?
It's selective memory, to an extent. Was FSU not a big game? Was UNC last year not a big game? We know Greivis is inconsistent, but without him last night, Maryland doesn't have a shot, and having a shot is better than not having one. There's a reason he was 2nd team All-ACC and is generally recognized as one of the best players in the country. He can take bad shots, but that's something you have to live with.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that part of the reason he holds on to the ball so much is because he's the only guy that can score with any consistency? No one else on the team was visible at all last night. Part of that was Vasquez's fault, yes, but anyone that thinks Hayes or Milbourne is a consistent 20 point scorer is insane. Most of Hayes' 3s come from Vasquez drives and kicks; he's a great player, but dependent on Vaz. Landon is still undersized and still disappears/wears down easily. He makes his living on putbacks and midrange jumpers, neither of which are go-to plays.
Sean Mosley has potential, but if last night showed anything, it's that he's not there yet. He looked a little timid and hasn't been an effective offensive option since...the William and Mary game. He brings a lot to the table, but that's not one of the things (yet). So who's the main option? It's Vasquez, all the time. If Maryland goes anywhere, good or bad, Vasquez will take them there.
Last second shots are difficult. They're pressure-packed situations and decision-making is difficult. Greivis was playing averagely at that point, but he's hit two game-tying shots in similar situations before. To me, he has to take that shot. Was it a bad one? Yes. But I have more faith in him than anyone else, and I'll generally trust him.
Greivis wasn't great last night. In fact, it's not hard to argue he was bad. He turned it over too much and took bad shots, particularly in OT. But to insinuate that Maryland would be just as good without him just seems ridiculous. They lost for a lot of reasons last night, and the biggest was probably the fact that it was their second game in three days and on the road. Why not look at Jordan Williams' missed free throws, or Landon Milbourne's foul on Aminu, or the absolute abomination of defensive rebounding?
Maryland lost when he disappeared last season. Not a coincidence.
Am I off-base? I know there are some people less than pleased by Vasquez, as well as those that love him more than I do. Vote and profess opinions below.
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Comments
Greivis is good. I love him. And he is vital to the team.
But several of his shots are relatively early in the shot clock, either with a hand in his face or a forced drive and layup. I’d appreciate it if he were a little more selective with his shots, even in crunch-time (i.e. final 2 minutes and OT of the Wake game).
That said, I am not by any means suggesting that the game would have turned out any differently had GV passed up some of those shots.
The Turtle Soup Post is Absurd
Ben, I agree with you. I cannot wrap my head around the Turtle Soup post as well. Agreed, GV’s shot selection last night was questionable at times, and his end of game play was not what it needed to be. That being said, he kept us in that game as well as the FSU game. Sure you can nitpick through his stats and show them in a negative light all you want, but you cannot take away from what he brings to the team day in and day out. I cannot stand these fans who think that we would be a better team without him. There is nothing farther from the truth. Over the past 4 years, GV has won numerous games for us and he has earned the right to lead this time and take the big shot. He is the only consistent scoring threat on this team, and sometimes he needs to be a bit selfish. People need to stop bashing him and appreciating him, because this time next year we will all be missing him. His energy and passion will be missed for sure.
Absurd?
What’s absurd is stating that my argument is incorrect with such certainty. For example, you have no idea how Eric Hayes would have matured as a PG had he been given the keys as a freshman. His assist to turnover ratio (2.4:1) suggests he would be fine and the team would be able to run the offense more consistently. That’s just one of innumerable “unknowables” in regards to the current state of the team and its pecking order.
Did anyone actually read my post? At no point do I pronounce “the team is better without Vasquez”. I merely asked the question. A question that needs to be asked. The Terps are inconsistent because Vasquez is inconsistent and does not rely on his teammates nearly enough. His efficiency rating is the worst among the Terp starters.
Feel free to disagree with me. That’s why I started Turtle Soup. To further the discussion of the Terps. I make no claim to own the truth here, but don’t call me absurd. It’s a legitimate criticism and who the hell are you to call me out? You write, “I can’t stand these fans….” Oh, really? You can’t stand fans who toil over a blog for 5+ years as a labor of love to provide a forum for other Terp fans on the web? Stay classy.
by turtle soup on Jan 13, 2010 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
stay classy?
First, I want to say that I’ve enjoyed your writing at TS since less than a year after you began and I do appreciate the time and passion you put into covering the team that I love. That being said, this post essentially embodies why I don’t read your blog any more, preferring to come to this site for news and analysis. Everything there is so defensive, fatalistic and often uncivil. I appreciate the fact that a lot of the regulars over there are making a concerted effort to elevate the outlook but it’s just so painful to sift through all the negativity that is still rampant. I understand that you can’t control the opinions of the posters on your site but I think those comments stem from your constant doom and gloom opinions. I am so incredibly tired of Maryland fans being represented as petty, ill-behaved assholes and that’s why I’m here every day and I hope that more “glass half full” type terp fans join me as this site continues to establish itself. Please don’t misunderstand me; I’m not the kind of person that lives in denial and can find nothing wrong with our clearly flawed team. I just feel like criticism and analysis should carry a constructive sentiment and not feel like frustrated bitch sessions all the time.
I know that it’s frustrating to be called out like this, especially when you put so much time into something, but people are entitled to their own opinions. (I know you already made that point but the overall attitude of your post still didn’t really reflect it.) You seem to be quite self righteous in defending your “legitimate criticism” of Vasquez but think it totally out of line that someone else make a legitimate criticism of you the result is you making a personal attack on another poster. Not so classy. Either take your lumps or don’t submit your product for public consumption if stuff like this wounds you as much as it seems to.
Doubt, indulged and cherished, is in danger of becoming denial; but if honest, and bent on thorough investigation, it may soon lead to full establishment of the truth.
-Ambrose Bierce
by CorkyRasmit on Jan 14, 2010 3:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How exactly did I personally attack the guy who called me absurd? Reread my comment above. Did I say anything about him other than his comment wasn’t classy? He said he “couldn’t stand me”. That is a personal attack. I merely pointed it out and said that I didn’t appreciate it.
by turtle soup on Jan 15, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
omg let it go, mr. immature.
don’t you have another blog to work on?
It Is Absurd
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, and i respect everyones opinion but the point of this website is to discuss and that is exactly what i have done. I read your entire post, and to even pose the question of whether or not we would be better without GV is absurd, there is no way around it. He has lead us in almost every single statistical category for the past three years as well as being our unquestioned emotional leader. The problem with alot of Terps fans is the negativity, and i just find it unneccesary to constantly criticize our best player constantly. Focus on the good every once in a while instead of looking at the glass half empty all the time.I enjoy your blog and in no way mean any disrespect, i am simply stating my opinion that the negativity shared by you and many fans is what drives me and many other fans crazy.
I don't disagree with you at all
The reason the Terps are so inconsistent is that their success is dependent on one of the most inconsistent players in the universe.
And if I have to watch him lazily jog back on defense after turning the ball over one more time, I’m going to throw up.
http://newyorksportsjerk.blogspot.com/
by New York Sports Jerk on Jan 14, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think there is validity on both sides. On one hand, the terps need Vasquez to win enough games to get to the NCAA tourney this year. It seems pretty clear that without him, no one is going to step up and get the wins we need in ACC play.
But they need him playing the way he did against FSU this year and UNC last year with more consistency. So far the team has played 7 games where a win was not automatically expected (Cinci, Wisconsin, Indiana, Nova, W&M, FSU, and Wake). These are the games that make or break Maryland’s tourney hopes. And so far in these 7 games, Vasquez has played well in two of them.
So yes, Vasquez is a vital asset to this team…when he is playing well. Unfortunately, that is just not happening frequently enough for the Terps this season. The guard’s poor shot selection and propensity to turnover the ball have killed the terps in all of their key losses.
So while I do think Vasquez has been a disappointment thus far into the season and I do disapprove of his play, we are probably not going to do any better without him on the team. We just have to hope he gets his act together or that maybe Gary starts to get a little more control over his prime-time player. We might be screwed with him, but we are certainly screwed without him.
Agreed
I see both sides of the argument, and it is true that there is validity on both sides. GV needs to play the way he did against FSU and the way he did down the stretch last year. Its a given that he will have his off games, as he did last night against Wake. Although his shot selection was off and he did not shoot a high percentage, he played good defense and made several plays that kept us in the game down the stretch. I just think it is absurd to call him selfish and say that he kills the terps. GV is the Terps, and honestly we will go as far as he can carry us
I dont know what there is to argue Turtle soup
GV leads our team emotionally and in almost every other category…….everyone makes plays because of HIM creating the look; its not like he is hogging the ball…eric hayes wants him to have the ball because almost all of eric haye’s points come off an assist by GV. Hayes had the same amount of time GV did to become the leader of the team but it didn’t happen because he’s not Steve Nash no matter how much you or I want him to be. …I have to agree I hate hearing how bad Vasquez is, he’s by the far the best player…and cmon…it’s a little absurd at this point to suggest otherwise. No one is holding back Mosley, Milbourne or Hayes—especially not Vasquez
That's the most eloquent argument I've heard yet for Vasquez.
I think that is what all Vaz-lovers want to say, but just don’t have the words. WELL PUT!
Either way you look at it
greivis is essential to our team. unfortunately, when it comes to important conference games, we live and die by greivis vasquez. yeah, we may have won some early non-conference games when he wasnt playing so well, but when it comes down to those games that matter most…we dont stand a chance without GV on the floor. I was hoping Mosley would step up into the role of another player who can take control of a game, based on some of his games earlier this season. but i think we can all agree he isnt there yet.
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